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[nenjin]

Wait a minute... that is a trance induction!

AKA: Meditation.

Which sort of tells me that Meditation doesn't work for me. I am too resistant.

Also no that isn't me showing off. Some people are incredibly resistant to forms of trance to the point where it is outright impossible.

No, I hear you, I was the same way. (And I still actively resist trying to be hypnotized.) It's the kind of mental state you can only achieve if you want to achieve it. People with over active minds/hyperactivity/too much stuff going on in their life to shut out have a hard time with it.

[Neonivek]

In my case it is over active mind. I cannot stop thinking.

Basically it means that meditation isn't for everyone. There are reasons why there are stories of monks who basically can go through the motions of meditation but cannot achieve it.

[Furtuka]

My dad taught me the related breathing exercises a while back. I've found it to be very useful for calming myself down and making myself feel less exhausted.

[LordBucket]

Wait a minute... that is a trance induction!

Created by the fact that the human mind cannot concentrate on many things all at once.

The human body generally can't benchpress 200 pounds or run a marathon either. Unless you, you know...build up to it.

Yes, it's a popular notion that the "human mind can only focus on one thing at a time" but it's blatantly untrue. Try reading a book while walking and eating at the same time. It's not that difficult. With practice, you can increase the mental wordsize of what you're capable of focusing on. Try typing and talking at the same time. It will probably be more difficult than reading, walking and eating at the same time. But you can learn to do that too. Focusing on many stimuli at once is no different.

Which sort of tells me that Meditation doesn't work for me. I am too resistant.

Also no that isn't me showing off. Some people are incredibly resistant to forms of trance to the point where it is outright impossible.

First off, the "paying attention to everything at once" state described above is pretty much the opposite of a trance state.

Second, people "trance" all the time. Like I pointed out previously in the thread, most people zone out and go on autopilot every day driving to work, brushing their teeth, etc. Being "resistant to trance" really just means that you're more conscious, and so it's more difficult for a third party to catch you off-guard. This is not really that uncommon. For example, if you ever see a stage hypnotist, you'll notice that they generally get a bunch of volunteers, and have fully half of them sit back down by the end of the routine. Some people are more or less susceptible to external induction, but even so it's entirely likely that most people who are "resistant" probably spend hours every day in varying degrees of hypnotic states.  You can claim all you want that you're "resistant to trance" and that you're "not bragging" but you're going to have a difficult time convincing me that you spend every minute of every day fully self aware and without any mental processes on autopilot. Again, brushing your teeth without consciously and deliberately thinking about brushing your teeth being an obvious example.

Third, here's a snippet from a relevant conversion I had years ago:

From what you are saying it looks like a person with anxiety, trust issues,
closed off to suggestion, and/or awareness (depending) can make subliminal
messaging uneffective. That's also true for hypnosis too is it?

"It can be. But a clever hypnotist can often work around those issues. It's just a matter of understanding how to appeal to a particular mind. Fear and love can be powerful motivators. To give the most classic example...there are many people who insist they cannot be hypnotized because they're convinced that they're "too smart" or "too strong willed" to be "controlled" in such a manner. So...you simply apologize to such a person up front, and explain to them (while in a fully conscious state) that hypnosis doesn't always work, and that many people are naturally resistant to it. You explain that hypnosis requires use of some of the higher functions of the brain, and that very many people aren't sufficiently developed to be able to be hypnotized.

Bam!

Now things have been reframed. Now their subconscious believes that only smart people can be hypnotized. And as someone who feels pride and joy in being smart, they now have an opportunity to prove that they're smart and feel that joy...while simultaneous feeling fear that if they can't be hypnotized...clearly they must be "one of the dumb ones."

You now have cooperation because you've attached fear to failure to be hypnotized, instead of fear of being hypnotized. Identifying and fulfilling emotional needs makes for powerful incentive.

But on the other hand...if you have a person who belives that they're very average, and that rich, powerful, smart people are the evil devils who bring misery upon the middle class...that kind of approach is more likely to alienate them. You create a disincentive to hypnosis, because if they can be hypnotized, then obviously they're smart and therefore they must be evil. They don't want to be evil, so they resist hypnosis."

[Neonivek]

Yes, it's a popular notion that the "human mind can only focus on one thing at a time" but it's blatantly untrue

It isn't exactly true but it isn't untrue. The human mind finds ways to simplify complex actions that require a lot of concentration and distil them to a simple easy to understand form.

First off, the "paying attention to everything at once" state described above is pretty much the opposite of a trance state.

It is known as an Overload induction. I like to think of it like a record player skipping a beat.

Actually paying attention to everything is the opposite, the attempt to do so causes the trance state because it is difficult-impossible to be ever aware.

You can claim all you want that you're "resistant to trance" and that you're "not bragging" but you're going to have a difficult time convincing me that you spend every minute of every day fully self aware and without any mental processes on autopilot

It is resistant to the type of trance trying to be reached during meditation. Which is caused by what I believe is called hyperawareness as well as my own subconscious aversion to it.

It isn't "showing off" because it isn't a good thing, it is actually a bad thing. The inability to stop thinking constantly is akin to the inability to rest your own mind and serves as a barrier to both meditation, hypnosis, and even ordinary slumber (I get sleep anxiety a lot)

I am very well aware of the subject but I don't want to bog it down with all the ins and out so I will say that yes it is possible to get around those issues.

Heck Asperger syndrome is a barrier to guided meditation but only because of the cookie cutter formulas involved in it (People with Asperger syndrome tend to take things literally, when guided meditation tends to be very metaphorical) and it can be worked around easily with the right mindset.

All I am saying is simply speaking meditation works, some people have to work on it more then others. It is more then possible for someone to go through meditation and get nothing out of it even if they come in with an open mind.

From what I've heard, even with active effort from experts it can take years before you will have any progress if ever!

Which is the second answer I am giving: Does meditation actually work? Sometimes no.

Ugh I am bogging it down, it has been so long since I've had this conversation that I'd take over the thread to have it. So I am going to stop myself.

[alway]

I typically use space music for meditation. Concentrate on the music; the gentle flow of sound without any real beat to it. Slow breathing a bit. Then simply allow the mind to wander, occasionally bringing it back to focusing on the music.

Turns out it's a pretty good way of coming up with creative solutions to complex problems as well.

[LordBucket]

Then simply allow the mind to wander, occasionally bringing it back to focusing on the music.

You might personally find that to be relaxing, but deliberately "allowing your mind to wander" is pretty much the opposite of focusing your mind. You might as well say that you "work out" by going to the gym and hanging out, chatting with people, basically doing whatever strikes your fancy...then "occasionally" lifting a weight.

[Neonivek]

Then simply allow the mind to wander, occasionally bringing it back to focusing on the music.

You might personally find that to be relaxing, but deliberately "allowing your mind to wander" is pretty much the opposite of focusing your mind. You might as well say that you "work out" by going to the gym and hanging out, chatting with people, basically doing whatever strikes your fancy...then "occasionally" lifting a weight.

not that there isn't a value in just relaxing.

[Darkmere]

There is a big difference between actual meditation and relaxation techniques. It seems to be trendy to box up elementary relaxation techniques ("imagine yourself on a beach! Now you're meditating!") and label them for mass consumption by people who don't really want to try something, but feel accomplished.

To add to what's been said-
Though my training wasn't professional, I picked up a few things imperfectly. This won't make much more sense than the rest, but what helped me the most was the feeling of self-empowerment I got from controlling my own mind. If your mind wanders, it's your choice to let it be. If you get angry, you can choose to no longer be angry. For me, I also gained the ability to emotionally detach from myself and think about why I was making decisions I was making. Then I started making better decisions.

It's not something Western society really promotes, though why that is is not for this thread. Watching children's programming these days is basically training them to be unfocused and "de-powered." Twitter makes you speak up and get out of the way, do it now coz no one else has time to care and what you say must be brief and easily digestible. Blah, blah. The biggest first step you can take is honestly believe you have the power and self-control that others tell you you don't have. Once you have that, pick the method that sounds best to you and do it.

[Scoops Novel]

I'm the kind of guy who worries that his thoughts don't sound loud enough. Blanking my mind is something i can do, but it worries me. Edit: that's grasping at straws a bit, but i dislike the idea of doing nothing with my mind for protracted periods of time.

[Neonivek]

There is a big difference between actual meditation and relaxation techniques. It seems to be trendy to box up elementary relaxation techniques ("imagine yourself on a beach! Now you're meditating!") and label them for mass consumption by people who don't really want to try something, but feel accomplished

I should state that "Imagine yourself on a beach! Now you're meditating" is meditation (specifically guided). Though I understand where you are coming from.

A LOT of people latch themselves on without any indication of what works or why and create a lousy meditation and makes what is essentially relaxation techniques.

While there are a lot of fakes and lousy version... No using the beach not only works but it actually is a pretty good set of imagery to use for guided meditation (whether self guided or not). Just the sand the warmth and the feeling of it between your toes is usually enough.

Which is probably why it is abused by hacks so often.

Mind you in terms of the discipline I am most acquainted in, that would be hypnosis. Yet meditation and hypnosis share enough traits (in that hypnosis is just form of meditation) that I can actually stand my ground in this conversation. So if I get a few things wrong, I do apologize though I believe I have yet to make a mistake in my memory.

[MaximumZero]

PTW. I meditated over a long period of time, due to martial arts training. Really need to start up again.

[Scoops Novel]

Who has experienced Hypnosis? What's it's like?

[Eagleon]

There is a big difference between actual meditation and relaxation techniques. It seems to be trendy to box up elementary relaxation techniques ("imagine yourself on a beach! Now you're meditating!") and label them for mass consumption by people who don't really want to try something, but feel accomplished

I should state that "Imagine yourself on a beach! Now you're meditating" is meditation (specifically guided). Though I understand where you are coming from.

I don't. There are a wide variety of traditions for meditation across multiple cultures, and trying to shoehorn one method as 'actual' meditation is in-group favoritism. Whether or not someone is scamming people when the knowledge of techniques are available for free is irrespective of whether it's useful as meditation technique.

My own experience - zen meditation didn't click for me until I learned the overload technique Neonivek talked about for shamanic trance, something quite different. I think for a lot of people, it doesn't come gradually but rather some internal mechanism suddenly starts working, and you gain control. If you're having trouble with learning it, try doing it while doing other things. Biking, jogging, anything physical might work, or you could try to capture it while gaming, listening to music, painting (house style might be better than canvas style, unless you've been doing it for a while), anything repetitive and monotonous. Sitting down and doing nothing might just be associated with introspection and time to let your mind wander for you.

My second bit of advice - don't think of it as a failure. Unless you're really dedicated to the concept, you probably don't even want to be in a meditative state at all times, so why fight the times that you aren't? Getting stressed out about not being able to focus is intensely silly, because the unfocused states can be just as productive.

[Neonivek]

Who has experienced Hypnosis? What's it's like?

I have performed it on others, quite a bit. (It is one of my secret passions)

From what I gathered there is no one unifying "feeling of hypnosis" and each person experiences it differently but there are correlations (most people feel relaxed for example, but that could just be because relaxation inductions are as common as dirt).

To me something just seems to click inside a person.

There is also a 1/10 or 1/20 chance a person is extremely sensitive to hypnosis. Those are the kinds of people a hypnotist spots in a crowd to hypnotize.

Now as for the suggestion aspect of hypnosis (the "You are a bunny" part) now that is entirely person to person. Some people feel it very vividly being unable to distinguish it from reality (excluding subconscious awareness) and others will only feel vague aspects if anything. Suggestions can be anywhere from senses (Making someone feel warm or calm) all the way to outright hallucinations (Making someone see their arm as made of metal), with each person having a different ability to grasp either one.

Do you have more specific questions?