Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: 1 ... 9 10 [11] 12 13 ... 74

Author Topic: The revolutionary design bureau (OOC)  (Read 43751 times)

Taricus

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: The revolutionary design bureau (OOC)
« Reply #150 on: May 10, 2013, 03:45:46 pm »

That's what sonar is for Ebbor. And I doubt an airship is going to be effective at anti-sub, due to that flaw.
Logged
Quote from: evictedSaint
We sided with the holocaust for a fucking +1 roll

RAM

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: The revolutionary design bureau (OOC)
« Reply #151 on: May 10, 2013, 10:51:55 pm »

One great advantage of the airship carrier is altitude. Aeroplanes launched from it are almost instantly effective. Ground planes can take quite a while to accumulate potential energy. Also they fulfil the role of aircraft carriers by providing carrying capacity and range, while being much faster and travelling over terrain that heavy ships can't. They would be difficult at best to field in enemy-held air-space, but if we hold air-superiority then they shouldn't have many issues, and they should have the speed to evade just about any ground-based attack.

Pearl-harbour is just an all-around bad idea. If our ground forces are that effective then we don't really need to worry about their navy. Yes it could hurt us given time, but our aircraft should keep them from friendly ports so they will suffer crippling morale issues, especially if we treat them with decency... Also, mining their port would be sufficient, just keeping the fleet penned is the best possible course. We might suffer some to them being used as artillery, but the prospect of salvaging their fleet is too good to pass up.

We really need to use diplomacy. It doesn't need to be any sort of agreement or anything, but we need to at least issue an ultimatum. They are acting as a shield to our enemies and we can work with that. A history of surprise attacks will really really really hurt us in the long-run.
Logged
Vote (1) for the Urist scale!
I shall be eternally happy. I shall be able to construct elf hunting giant mecha. Which can pour magma.
Urist has been forced to use a friend as fertilizer lately.
Read the First Post!

Ukrainian Ranger

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: The revolutionary design bureau (OOC)
« Reply #152 on: May 10, 2013, 11:11:56 pm »

Quote
Pearl-harbour is just an all-around bad idea. If our ground forces are that effective then we don't really need to worry about their navy. Yes it could hurt us given time, but our aircraft should keep them from friendly ports so they will suffer crippling morale issues, especially if we treat them with decency... Also, mining their port would be sufficient, just keeping the fleet penned is the best possible course. We might suffer some to them being used as artillery, but the prospect of salvaging their fleet is too good to pass up.
It's not that easy to force them to hold any navy in port... Their ships can and will enjoy convoy hunting. Surface raiding is so, so much more useful than submarines
If they'll lose the land war, their ships will just move to Morovian ports

Also, again, worst case - we fail to advance that fast on land is
ignored

Quote
but we need to at least issue an ultimatum.
Show them our clear hostile intentions, let them prepare and mobilize?
If Germany would declared proper war on everyone... they would lose... well in 1940 stuck at Belgian border?  I know that Germany lost, but that's not because they made surprise attacks
Logged
War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend.

tryrar

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: The revolutionary design bureau (OOC)
« Reply #153 on: May 10, 2013, 11:20:01 pm »

I'm more in favor of a negotiated settlement to allow troop movement through Capia, and if that fails THEN we take them over. Might be a bit more difficult since they might start preparing if negotiations fall through, but since we'd have a CLEAR advantage in armor and mobility(and probably air force as well since we have the Zephyrs), and our navity is at least at parity right now, I'm not sure they can stop us if we drive straight for their capital and force a surrender
Logged
This fort really does sit on the event horizon of madness and catastrophe
No. I suppose there are similarities, but I'm fairly certain angry birds doesn't let me charge into a battalion of knights with a car made of circular saws.

Ukrainian Ranger

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: The revolutionary design bureau (OOC)
« Reply #154 on: May 10, 2013, 11:51:11 pm »

Ok, if you guys think that Capia would prefer war with Morovia than war with us... try that. Good luck in the diplomacy.

Quote
and our navity is at least at parity right now,
That's just nonsense, Capian navy was larger back then, before naval war with Morovia...  Unlike us, they didn't lost newly produced ships in wars, and never concentrated on ASW as  much as we did( Our reverse engenieered subs may like that, but most of our ships are escorts poorly suited to fight big ships in open seas or move close to enemy coastal guns) + we'll need to fight two navies


I want an update as this discussion is boring. Luckily tank designs aren't supported much, unluckily that will be "we love special forces" update
Unsure about 3.2. While useful, still think it is a friendly fire paradise (we may try to attack Capian navy masking us as Morovians, but stuff like that is better in theory than in practice... Still they might be used for smaller scale Pearl Harbor or in large scale pearl harbor if that will be ever agreed)

Logged
War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend.

RAM

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: The revolutionary design bureau (OOC)
« Reply #155 on: May 11, 2013, 12:04:23 am »

Quote
Pearl-harbour is just an all-around bad idea. If our ground forces are that effective then we don't really need to worry about their navy. Yes it could hurt us given time, but our aircraft should keep them from friendly ports so they will suffer crippling morale issues, especially if we treat them with decency... Also, mining their port would be sufficient, just keeping the fleet penned is the best possible course. We might suffer some to them being used as artillery, but the prospect of salvaging their fleet is too good to pass up.
It's not that easy to force them to hold any navy in port... Their ships can and will enjoy convoy hunting. Surface raiding is so, so much more useful than submarines
If they'll lose the land war, their ships will just move to Morovian ports

Also, again, worst case - we fail to advance that fast on land is
ignored

Quote
but we need to at least issue an ultimatum.
Show them our clear hostile intentions, let them prepare and mobilize?
If Germany would declared proper war on everyone... they would lose... well in 1940 stuck at Belgian border?  I know that Germany lost, but that's not because they made surprise attacks
Operating from foreign ports will be bad for morale, and if we behave with decency, then that might work to our advantage. To quote World War II, Germany easily conquered France, but lost the French Navy and had to deal with a massive resistance effort. And if the land-army does badly then starting a land war was obviously a bad decision...
 Yes, show them our clearly hostile intentions, let them prepare and mobilise, they almost certainly already have(To think otherwise would be to ignore the possibility that they might be suspicious of their heavily-armed and idealistically opposed neighbour with no land access to anything else...). We pass up the advantage of a surprise attack and in exchange we might, someday, get a neighbour that is willing to trust us. Alternatively, we could engage in a surprise attack against an enemy that we should be able to defeat regardless and subsequently, everyone we ever meet will assume that the only way to stop us from giving them a nasty surprise is to give them one first.
Germany lost because most of the world disliked what they were doing. We want to win the war of ideology, and that means acting with honour...
Logged
Vote (1) for the Urist scale!
I shall be eternally happy. I shall be able to construct elf hunting giant mecha. Which can pour magma.
Urist has been forced to use a friend as fertilizer lately.
Read the First Post!

Ukrainian Ranger

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: The revolutionary design bureau (OOC)
« Reply #156 on: May 11, 2013, 01:00:28 am »

Quote
To quote World War II, Germany easily conquered France, but lost the French Navy and had to deal with a massive resistance effort.
Yep, that's why hoping to get their navy by land operation is very optimistic at least
Do you prefer  to conquer them in a long, hard war and get real resistance ?(Sorry, but French resistance is not massive by any means. Look at Yugoslavia for the example of massive resistance )

Quote
let them prepare and mobilise, they almost certainly already have
[sarcasm] Sure, they are mobilized all years long since our first battles with Morovia... And concentrated all forces on our border, ignoring all others [/sarcasm]

Quote
Germany lost because most of the world disliked what they were doing. We want to win the war of ideology, and that means acting with honour...
Attacking the country only to get to another country is a bad boy move, surprise or not
Germany lost because it was weaker than enemies... 
Never heard about any country that attacked Germany because of their surprise attacks. Care to name few? How many countries chose to declare war on Germany after they surprise attacked Norway? Or lower countries? Or USSR?
Maybe you think that if they hadn't surprise attacked they would get more allies? Who? Spain? Argentina? Turkey? Switzerland? Sweden? Nope this neutral countries didn't join war on German side not because of German "lack of honor" but because of strategy considerations

Without surprise element Germany would never occupy Norway,  would have much more problems with Belgium, and few days of preparation for Soviet forces would lead to quite different 1941
« Last Edit: May 11, 2013, 01:02:59 am by Ukrainian Ranger »
Logged
War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend.

RAM

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: The revolutionary design bureau (OOC)
« Reply #157 on: May 11, 2013, 02:36:25 am »

Quote
To quote World War II, Germany easily conquered France, but lost the French Navy and had to deal with a massive resistance effort.
Yep, that's why hoping to get their navy by land operation is very optimistic at least
We have our air forces and if we are obviously planning a land war then they may well not mobilise their entire navy. It is of limited use, Morovia is already harassing our supply lines, so they can keep their navy on the defensive. It is quite possible that we could still surprise them with a mine-heavy air attack and make their major docking facilities unusable without a particularly violent confrontation.
Do you prefer  to conquer them in a long, hard war and get real resistance ?(Sorry, but French resistance is not massive by any means. Look at Yugoslavia for the example of massive resistance )
If it means that their people will think of us as people rather than monsters, then yes, without hesitation.
Quote
let them prepare and mobilise, they almost certainly already have
[sarcasm] Sure, they are mobilized all years long since our first battles with Morovia... And concentrated all forces on our border, ignoring all others [/sarcasm]
If they are going to ignore their border with Morovia then they are already in a very close alliance. Which is precisely why we can't just attack them. Morovia launched a poorly-justified attack because they could, now our neighbour can't afford to trust them. So they are not going to ignore all other borders. They are, quite literally, right in the middle of a war. The idea that they do not have the majority of their forces ready to deploy is ridiculous.
Quote
Germany lost because most of the world disliked what they were doing. We want to win the war of ideology, and that means acting with honour...
Attacking the country only to get to another country is a bad boy move, surprise or not
When they are effectively supporting a blockade against us? When we can reasonably argue that they are permitting enemy submarines to use their territorial waters? When we offer to pay them to lease us a land-bridge to Morovia and they refuse on principal? There is a lot for us to work with here on the propaganda front. There is little reason not to surprise them with the speed and ability of our forces, and there should be plenty of opportunity to do so. but surprising them by not declaring war, that will have major repercussions that we really don't want. Personally, I wouldn't be opposed to, say, declaring war on them in a fit, then just sitting on it for a month. We get just as much surprise, but no diplomatic fallout....
Never heard about any country that attacked Germany because of their surprise attacks. Care to name few? How many countries chose to declare war on Germany after they surprise attacked Norway? Or lower countries? Or USSR?
I could name a few concerning a surprise attack against Poland...
Maybe you think that if they hadn't surprise attacked they would get more allies? Who? Spain? Argentina? Turkey? Switzerland? Sweden? Nope this neutral countries didn't join war on German side not because of German "lack of honour" but because of strategy considerations
I am more concerned with the citizenry of those countries, many of whom faced ideological dilemmas. As popular as fascism was, I suspect that most governments were more afraid of communism...
 Besides, "they will launch a surprise attack the moment they think they have the advantage" is a legitimately strategic consideration.
Without surprise element Germany would never occupy Norway,  would have much more problems with Belgium, and few days of preparation for Soviet forces would lead to quite different 1941
The Soviets had no idea that Germany was going to attack them? The German military strategies were largely effective long past the declaration of war. France wasn't taken by surprise because it thought that Germany was just going to sit around and do nothing, it was surprised because they didn't know how fast the German forces could move.
Logged
Vote (1) for the Urist scale!
I shall be eternally happy. I shall be able to construct elf hunting giant mecha. Which can pour magma.
Urist has been forced to use a friend as fertilizer lately.
Read the First Post!

10ebbor10

  • Bay Watcher
  • DON'T PANIC
    • View Profile
Re: The revolutionary design bureau (OOC)
« Reply #158 on: May 11, 2013, 02:51:25 am »

Without surprise element Germany would never occupy Norway,  would have much more problems with Belgium, and few days of preparation for Soviet forces would lead to quite different 1941
The Soviets had no idea that Germany was going to attack them? The German military strategies were largely effective long past the declaration of war. France wasn't taken by surprise because it thought that Germany was just going to sit around and do nothing, it was surprised because they didn't know how fast the German forces could move.
[/quote]
There was a NAP between the USSR and germany. So yeah, they didn't really expect it.

Note that that fast move was only possible because germany could overrun the unprepared Belgian Bunker network. If they had properly declared way, then the Belgian neutrality (which, actually only existed on paper) would have been broken. This would have allowed the french and English forces to move forward into Belgian terretory, in order to support the bunker network. Adding to that, the bunkers wouldn't have fallen so easily. Their entire strategy was based on suprise air raids, after all.
Logged

Ukrainian Ranger

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: The revolutionary design bureau (OOC)
« Reply #159 on: May 11, 2013, 03:36:19 am »

Quote
If it means that their people will think of us as people rather than monsters, then yes, without hesitation.
So, you think that that being occupied after a proper declaration of war  is anyway better than being occupied after surprise attack?

Quote
When they are effectively supporting a blockade against us? When we can reasonably argue that they are permitting enemy submarines to use their territorial waters? 
Use that as justification for surprise attack. Hell, Announce that Capia host Morovian subs at their naval base, bomb the base to oblivion on that premise without declaration of war and land advance, if you want no quick attack

Quote
When we offer to pay them to lease us a land-bridge to Morovia and they refuse on principal?
I am tired to repeat that neutral country can't let troops of other country inside and claim to be neutral. Demanding that is demanding to join war on your side

Quote
I could name a few concerning a surprise attack against Poland...
So, you claim, that Britain and France would never declare war on Germany had they attacked Poland in a different way?
Logged
War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend.

10ebbor10

  • Bay Watcher
  • DON'T PANIC
    • View Profile
Re: The revolutionary design bureau (OOC)
« Reply #160 on: May 11, 2013, 03:38:36 am »

That's what sonar is for Ebbor. And I doubt an airship is going to be effective at anti-sub, due to that flaw.
Sonar can't detect everything. Point being, airships were used with great effectivity against submarines during the entirety of the second world war. (Note: On the American coasts, that is). In Europe, the airspace was too contested, IIRC.
Logged

Ukrainian Ranger

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: The revolutionary design bureau (OOC)
« Reply #161 on: May 11, 2013, 03:56:32 am »

Made one more diplomatic suggestion in IC, hope that those will get any support
Logged
War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend.

RAM

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: The revolutionary design bureau (OOC)
« Reply #162 on: May 11, 2013, 05:19:10 am »

Quote
If it means that their people will think of us as people rather than monsters, then yes, without hesitation.
So, you think that that being occupied after a proper declaration of war  is anyway better than being occupied after surprise attack?
It is part of a larger system of being more honest and considerate than the alternatives. And given time it may well get us popular support, friendly revolutions, and civil neighbours.
Logged
Vote (1) for the Urist scale!
I shall be eternally happy. I shall be able to construct elf hunting giant mecha. Which can pour magma.
Urist has been forced to use a friend as fertilizer lately.
Read the First Post!

10ebbor10

  • Bay Watcher
  • DON'T PANIC
    • View Profile
Re: The revolutionary design bureau (OOC)
« Reply #163 on: May 11, 2013, 05:24:40 am »

We're a communist country. Proper declarations of wars won't get us any credit from the capitalists.

If we invade, we'll say we'll do it for the poor workforce, and the change in power should stop the resistance.
Logged

RAM

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: The revolutionary design bureau (OOC)
« Reply #164 on: May 11, 2013, 06:29:05 am »

It may get us credit with the capitalist citizenry...
Logged
Vote (1) for the Urist scale!
I shall be eternally happy. I shall be able to construct elf hunting giant mecha. Which can pour magma.
Urist has been forced to use a friend as fertilizer lately.
Read the First Post!
Pages: 1 ... 9 10 [11] 12 13 ... 74