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[tryrar]

....RAM, just give up on the ethics thing. Nobody but you supports it

[Funk]

i do support some ethics, lets follow the geneva conventions, rememberer the fourth is not in effect yet.   

[RAM]

The ethics thing is a good idea, our enemies have been ruthlessly targeting civilians, we really have a chance here to prove our moral superiority. If we do it publicly, and still succeed, we could win a significant following in other countries. It could raise rebellions, draw defectors, invite intellectual immigrants, finf foreign friends, and generally be a really good thing for us. If we ever want to be more than a one insignificant nation constantly squabbling with its neighbours then we will need a grand gesture to win the world's support, and this could be it.
 We didn't win this country through superior arms and base cunning. The royal guards had the best equipment in the nation, and monarchs didn't have a scruple between them. We won this country because we had the mandate to act. We had the courage to fight and a cause that was just. We won this nation because the people knew that they could find a better way, and now we have it, and we can show it to the rest of the world. And when the aristocrats, hiding in their palaces, tell their people to oppose us, let our deeds reply. Let the people know that they do not need to listen to their oppressors, that we can lead them to a world that they can keep for themselves!

[10ebbor10]

We've been trying propaganda forever, and it isn't working. A fancy, non government supported paper is going to do nothing usefull.

Besides, this requires us to give up our submarine war, which is kinda the only thing that's going well.

[RAM]

Well then propose a variant. I would heartily like to see an emphasis made to capture merchant vessels rather than destroy them. Build fast boarding vessels and packs of fast, long-ranged capital-ship hunters and we could rebuild our merchant fleet with enemy shipping. The carrier airships could perform a miraculous job of destroying escorts. And just thing about how it would look to the world if they start mounting deck-guns and flak on their merchants? And if they are sending a large fleet with every merchant convoy, then they are clearly spending far more resources on the effort than they can afford...

[10ebbor10]

Won't work. We can't even keep our own coasts clear, let alone go and steal boats in Moldavian waters. The ships would be destroyed by their own airforce, and we would face terrible losses. We can't even escort our own convoys, let alone escort a convoy from Moldavia to our country.

The carrier airships are to slow to effecitively operate in Moldavian terretory. They'll be intercepted, and either forced to return or be destroyed. Besides, our bombers are ineffective against cruisers now, the carrier airship is not going to solve that problem.

Mounting deckguns on merchant ships is permitted by Geneva convention, and a fairly common warpractice. In fact, it's a technique often used against submarine attacks. The world won't even notice.

Escorting merchants convoys is what we're currently doing btw. Also a common technique.

Besides, boarding isn't as easy as you make it out to be.

[Funk]

i like the idea of raiding to steal ships and cargo, but we cant do it now.
we will need a big sub with cargo/prisoner space.

and monting guns on ships changes there place in the Prize rules, thay become a threat to the attacker and may be sunk without warning.

[10ebbor10]

i like the idea of raiding to steal ships and cargo, but we cant do it now.
we will need a big sub with cargo/prisoner space.

and mounting guns on ships changes there place in the Prize rules, thay become a threat to the attacker and may be sunk without warning.

The entire point of submarines is stealth, and hit and run attacks. You can't just anchor next to a boat, and quitely start loading of their cargo. Won't work. First of all, the enemy won't give you the time to do so. (Besides, neither the merchant ship nor submarine will have the infrastructure to do so. Or do you want to pack a cargo crane too. That'd better be a humongously big submarine.

We're operating under Unrestricted Submarine Warfare . Prize rules are void.

Let's tone down the megalomania a bit, shall we.

((Besides, merchant ships may be armed, as defined by some conference in London in 1912))


As a note, we lost 25% of our infantery last turn. We should really try to move to a stalemate, and assume defensive positions. This war has been going on for quite some time now.

[RAM]

The proposed torpedo plane should prove adequate to attack isolated vessels, and the airship carrier should prove swift enough to maintain a harassing force without risk to itself from surface vessels. Escorting small convoys should be impractical. Escorting large convoys should result in isolated escorts. They should be able to mount numerous sorties, destroying a vessel or two each time, until the convoy is depleted of its escorts. Merchant vessels should have comparatively light armour. A wealth of relatively light armaments should be easy to mount and, combines with strong communication channels between boarders and support gunners, should be capable of complete penetration and provide compelling reason for the merchant crew to choose to cooperate.
 Submarines cannot win this war. We cannot win at sea. While we are dependant upon naval supplies, Morovia is not. There is no suggestion of invading Morovian waters, and the carriers perfectly capable of transporting, and launching near instantly, fighter planes with which to defend themselves if it comes to that. Airships would also prove more capable of detecting merchant traffic, and the carriers, while providing aeroplanes with which to attack surface vessels, would also serve to protect radar airships. We would use aircraft to defeat surface ships, surface ships to defeat submersibles, and boarding vessels to take merchant vessels and escort them to friendly ports.

[3_14159]

From what I see, even if we are able to eliminate a convoy's escorts, the problem of escorting them home remains. Here, we basically have the same problem as in our territorial waters, except that they can additionally use planes to attack the convoy and we have no surface ships that we can use for a defense.

[10ebbor10]

The proposed torpedo plane should prove adequate to attack isolated vessels, and the airship carrier should prove swift enough to maintain a harassing force without risk to itself from surface vessels.

Sadly, almost all Moldavian and remaining Capian vessels operate outside our sphere of airoperations. The aircraft carrier will be on it's own, facing of against the entire Moldavian air and seaforce.

While we are dependant upon naval supplies, Morovia is not.

We're not dependent on naval supplies either. We do have another land border, you know.

There is no suggestion of invading Morovian waters, and the carriers perfectly capable of transporting, and launching near instantly, fighter planes with which to defend themselves if it comes to that. Airships would also prove more capable of detecting merchant traffic, and the carriers, while providing aeroplanes with which to attack surface vessels, would also serve to protect radar airships. We would use aircraft to defeat surface ships, surface ships to defeat submersibles, and boarding vessels to take merchant vessels and escort them to friendly ports.

Moldavian merchants are not operating in our waters(Gee, I guess why). So well, if you want to play pirate, you have to go where the merchants are. Ie, into Moldavian waters. Your aircraft carriers will then be forced to defend themselves against the entire Moldavian airforce, without any support from our planes. Optimistically, your carrier* can take 20 planes (Which would require another doubling in lift force, with all associated problems). So not only will your fighters be outteched(Design consequences of being carryable), they will also be tremendously outnumbered.

Also, you're having things a bit backwards. Why do you want to use each unit against it weakness? Airplanes are natural subhunters, subs are natural shiphunters, and ships often have excellent AA defense. Also, boarding vessels are ideally low profile, small and fast. Not the ideal seagoing thingy. We'll loose many just to bad weather.

*It's unlikely that you'll have more than 2 carriers on a mission, because even with linear** production cost increases, your carrier would require 200 production points. The planes would most likely cost another 200 points. Meaning that one dedicated factory can get at most 2 ships equiped and launched a year.
**Which it isn't. See K-1 and badger. 12 times cost increase

[RAM]

It will be facing no Morovian airforce because it will be operating at sea, rather than hugging the Morovian coastline. And it will not be alone, it will have Radar Airships. Surface Vessels, and assorted aeroplanes. This would be operations against Morovian shipping in deep water.

Not much of one, and we have poor relationships with our neighbours. Morovia is, as far as we know, on good terms with its neighbours and has more land border than sea border, which is much more than we have...

... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ...

Merchants do not sit in friendly waters. That completely defeats the purpose of having ships. The concept of having to enter their waters to reach their merchants is ludicrous, ridiculous, and unsound. The Airships have the view, and hopefully RA.D.A.R. capacity to hunt open ocean. Numbers are numbers, assuming it can carry 5 plane 1000 of them could carry 5000, which would easily out-number their opponents, 20 versus the entire air force is just a fabrication. *You use the force you have where you can use it, don't enter hostile airspace until you have the numbers to endure it, the point is still irrelevant. The entire Morovian airforce would need to drop whatever they are doing and respond to one issue on an unusual border. The airships should be fast, not aeroplane fast, but fast enough that they can cause navigation and logistical issues if they can maintain their range. In poor visibility conditions, including distance, they could disappear entirely unless the Morovians happen to have RA.D.A.R. installations over the ocean.
 Captured merchants would be in much the same situation as friendly shipping. It would take losses, but many would make it.

[10ebbor10]

It will be facing no Morovian airforce because it will be operating at sea, rather than hugging the Morovian coastline. And it will not be alone, it will have Radar Airships. Surface Vessels, and assorted aeroplanes. This would be operations against Morovian shipping in deep water.

We don't have the surface ships to spare for such an operation. Nor do we have the radar ships, which we need to secure our own naval space. The surface area you describe is enormous, and it's unlikely that we will be able to catch any ships here.  (Considering you want to operate on a sphere outside the range of their air operations).

Not much of one, and we have poor relationships with our neighbours. Morovia is, as far as we know, on good terms with its neighbours and has more land border than sea border, which is much more than we have...

Also note that your tactic is entirely void if the Morovian shipping decides to stay in the coastal waters of it's neightbouring nations until it's out of our range. (Most likely, this won't even be too problematic) We really don't need a 3 on 1 combat situation. Your plan also ignores that airships are very easily damaged by bad weather(In fact, bad weather was the most common problem for airships), and will not survive prolonged use at sea. A single storm will heavily damage them, and at open sea it's unlikely they will make it back.

Merchants do not sit in friendly waters. That completely defeats the purpose of having ships. The concept of having to enter their waters to reach their merchants is ludicrous, ridiculous, and unsound. The Airships have the view, and hopefully RA.D.A.R. capacity to hunt open ocean. Numbers are numbers, assuming it can carry 5 plane 1000 of them could carry 5000, which would easily out-number their opponents, 20 versus the entire air force is just a fabrication. *You use the force you have where you can use it, don't enter hostile airspace until you have the numbers to endure it, the point is still irrelevant. The entire Morovian airforce would need to drop whatever they are doing and respond to one issue on an unusual border. The airships should be fast, not aeroplane fast, but fast enough that they can cause navigation and logistical issues if they can maintain their range. In poor visibility conditions, including distance, they could disappear entirely unless the Morovians happen to have RA.D.A.R. installations over the ocean.
 Captured merchants would be in much the same situation as friendly shipping. It would take losses, but many would make it.

Merchants also don't go near our sphere of influence. Sure, we can go around, but it'll take time, and make it more liable for our forces to be intercepted.  The number is not a fabrication, it's a guess based on our current production costs, production capacity, and estimated costs. In fact, it's very optimistic, as I explained.

((Making a map soon to explain my point.))

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Map.

Spheres of air superiority in red, naval area in purple. Merchant lines in green, showing how an attack would most likely require infringing on other nations national waters. Also illustrated, but not clearly, the distance the ships would need to travel to get back.

[Funk]

We cant raid any merchant ships due to the lack of air cover and being bottled inside our planes range.

In light of our infantry losses should we try to work on armour again? 

[3_14159]

Thanks, 10ebbor, for explaining nearly the same I wanted, only much much better.

In light of our infantry losses should we try to work on armour again? 

Do you mean body armour or tanks? The former will probably not work again (I think Nadaka declared it as far before the time, and hasn't given indication that has changed). The latter, well, we have just designed the Ratel tank, which will come out the factories soon. I wouldn't design anything before we know how it performs.