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[itg]

So, I managed to trap a dusty forgotten beast with the intent of making a death chamber, but it turns out I got something even better. The dust blinds with no other ill effects. This is the first time I've had the opportunity to blind dwarves, or anything else, for that matter, in a controlled manner. It's a great opportunity to test the behavior and abilities of blind dwarves, and maybe blind goblins, too. What do we know so far? What needs more research? Anything else particularly sadistic fun I should try?

Here's the save in case you want to do some Science of your own:

http://dffd.wimbli.com/file.php?id=7618

Results so far:

Trading:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Trading

Subject:

Goden Sarveshtimnar, broker

Relevant skills:

Legendary Appraiser
Novice judge of intent
Novice negotiator
Novice in 5-6 conversational skills

Prodedure:

The trader offered a highly favorable trade to maximize human merchant's disposition, then offered a variety of trades to gauge the minimum profit margin the merchant would accept. For simplicity, I assumed factors other than profit margin would average out. The trader was blinded, then the experiment was repeated.

Results:

Sighted, the trader was able to see prices and judge the merchant's disposition as usual. I didn't record the exact items traded, but it seemed very consistent over about 10 trades that the merchant required a profit margin of just over 30%.

Blind, the trader could see prices, but he could not judge the merchant's disposition. The trader's negotiating abilities appeared to suffer, as the merchant tended to demand a profit margin closer to 50%.

This wasn't a fully rigorous experiment. Ideally, one would make a logical series of trades with the sighted dwarf, record them, savescum, blind the dwarf, repeat those trades, then compare the results. I think it gets the point across, though.

Engraving:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Engraving

Subject:

Udil Lertethfath

Relevant skills:

Legendary Engraver

Procedure:

The dwarf was locked in a 12x17 room and ordered to smooth and engrave it. She was then blinded and given an identical room to smooth and engrave.

Results:

The blind dwarf smoothed and engraved at exactly the same speed as she did when she could see. The quality of engravings took a serious hit, though. The data:

Sighted:

Masterful - 57
Exceptional - 147
Total - 204

Blind:

Masterful - 24
Exceptional - 105
Superior - 70
Fine - 5
Total - 204

The subject matter of engravings did not seem to be affected. The fine-quality engraving seemed more likely to be simplistic (they usually are, I think), but the sample size was too small to make a conclusive judgment.

It would be nice to figure out the effective skill level of the blind engraver, probably by having a dwarf at each skill level engrave a 12x17 room, then comparing that data to my results above. I only have legendaries and non-engravers on hand, so that's a project that will have to wait unless someone else wants to help out.

Masonry:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Masonry

Subject:

Udil Lertethfath (again)

Relevant Skills

Legendary mason

Procedure

The subject (who had healed since his last experiment) was ordered to construct 100 piece of furniture: 20 statues, 20 thrones, 20 tables, 20 weapon stands, 20 armor racks. He was re-blinded then ordered to repeat the experiment.

Results

There was no point in counting quality levels this time. Every single piece of furniture Udil created while blind was created at minimum quality.  He was slow, too, about the speed of a dabbling mason. Literally ANY dwarf with at least one functioning eye is a better mason than a legendary blind mason. I have to admit, this came as a surprise to me after the blind engraver (same dwarf, in fact) performed moderately well, producing plenty of masterpieces.

Carpentry:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Carpentry

Subject:

Aban Niraltulon

Relevant Skills:

Legendary Carpenter

Procedure:

In light of the masonry results, I did the blind test first, building 10 cages, 10 shields, 10 beds, 10 spiked balls, 10 minecarts, and 10 training axes.

Results:

The results were the same as in the masonry experiment. The blind carpenter builds all items at minimum quality and very slowly, probably at the slowest possible speed, though I'm not sure how to determine that conclusively. Even a legendary blind carpenter is the worst carpenter possible.

Hunting:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Hunting

Subjects:

Momuz Zulbannol, hunter
Urdim Mengegen, not hunter
Shorast Gikendatan, sort of hunter

Skills

Momuz:

Great Marksdwarf/Archer
Accomplished Ambusher
Novice Hammerdwarf
Adequate Fighter

Urdim:

No relevant skills

Shorast:

Adequate Marksdwarf/Archer
Adequate Ambusher
Novice Fighter
Novice Wrestler

Procedure:

Hunting kind of has to happen organically, so I blinded the subjects and followed them as they attempted to hunt, recording observations.

Results:

Hunt 1, Momuz: The hunter began sneaking in the direction of a dingo, but the dingo was accidentally killed by some nearby soldiers. He returned the kill as if he had killed it himself.

Hunt 2, Momuz: The soldiers killed another dingo and Momuz returned it, despite being nowhere nearby.

Hunt 3, Momuz: The hunter approached his quarry (an opossum), but as he got close he seemed to wander off in the wrong direction. It soon became clear that he was periodically divining the animal's location somehow (I'm betting on beardsense), then heading to that point without correcting for the animal's wandering. It's actually a pretty reliable method of finding the prey, if a little inefficient. Upon reaching the animal, the hunter would pause briefly, then the opossum would run away. I couldn't see any shot fired and there was nothing in the combat logs, but after a while the hunter ran out of ammo. On his way to get more ammo, the hunter stumbled into the opossum and bashed it to death with his crossbow. However, I checked his health soon after, and his blindness had worn off, so this unexpected display of competence probably doesn't count.

Hunt 4, Momuz, reblinded: He hunted a wombat this time. The hunt was identical except for the surprise bashing at the end. The wombat got away.

Hunt 5, Urdim: Hunted a dingo, using the same tracking process as Momuz. However, when he entered the dingo's square, the dingo stayed and fought. Urdim never dodged, blocked, or fought back, although there's the possibility he was firing his crossbow and missing as the last hunter seemed to do. He was able to counterstrike, though. Urdim regained his sight (Combat may trigger this, somehow. Too many dwarfs have suddenly regained their sight right after being attacked), ran for a few steps, then shot and killed the dingo. Then he promptly died in a drawbridge accident.

Hunt 6, Shorast: The hunt was identical to Urdim's.

Conclusion:

In short, blind hunters will eventually find their prey, but they are very, very bad at shooting it, regardless of combat/hunting skills. Their only hope of killing an animal seems to be to let it attack them and to try for a counterstrike. There is still the possibility that a hunter who is out of ammo will be able to bash his prey to death. More research is needed on that point.

[Urist Da Vinci]

Tests to perform on blind dwarves:
- melee combat skill difference (normal dwarf vs himself while blind)
- ranged combat difference (both as the blind shooter and as the blind victim)
- quality of crafted items
- How does a blind civilian react to a nearby goblin?
- Can blind dwarves still see and admire things like statues, traps, or animals in zoo cages?
- Can you track dust into the trade depot and blind the caravans?
- Is a blind trader good at appraising the value of goods or making deals?
- Is farming skill or results affected by blind farmers?
- Are blind siege operators any good?
- Blind hunting, blind fishing?

[Drazinononda]

Blind dwarf science is all well and good, but you should have a third party conduct the tests for you so your own biases don't skew the results. Then the tests would be...

Double blind.

*ba dum chsh*

[They Got Leader]

Tests to perform on blind dwarves:
- melee combat skill difference (normal dwarf vs himself while blind)
- ranged combat difference (both as the blind shooter and as the blind victim)
- quality of crafted items
- How does a blind civilian react to a nearby goblin?
- Can blind dwarves still see and admire things like statues, traps, or animals in zoo cages?
- Can you track dust into the trade depot and blind the caravans?
- Is a blind trader good at appraising the value of goods or making deals?
- Is farming skill or results affected by blind farmers?
- Are blind siege operators any good?
- Blind hunting, blind fishing?

I think some tests have been done on blind dwarves before to note that they do not flee from enemies because they do not see them. However, they do make good siege engineers because siege weapons only shoot the direction they are facing and these dwarves do not become afraid when enemies get close. Lastly, I remember someone talking about how dwarves in the martial trance state need no sight to fight well. I will have to forum lurk for a bit and see if I can find the research.

Blind dwarf science is all well and good, but you should have a third party conduct the tests for you so your own biases don't skew the results. Then the tests would be...

Double blind.

*ba dum chsh*

You, there. Sir. Please die in a couch fire. (+1 point for your pun usage)

[slothen]

siege engineers are terrible no matter what you do.  Test out something cooler.

Does a blind dwarf dodge arrows?
Other combat tests.
Quality level of crafts.

[Nyan Thousand]

Question: what is the difference between a blind dwarf and one that's been modded to have no eyes?

[Trapezohedron]

Question: what is the difference between a blind dwarf and one that's been modded to have no eyes?

[EXTRAVISION].

A creature with extravision will be able to see no matter what happens to its eyes. A creature with no extravision and eyes is, as you'd expect, blind.

[Sutremaine]

Lastly, I remember someone talking about how dwarves in the martial trance state need no sight to fight well. I will have to forum lurk for a bit and see if I can find the research.

Not research, but an an adventurer.

[Nyan Thousand]

Question: what is the difference between a blind dwarf and one that's been modded to have no eyes?

[EXTRAVISION].

A creature with extravision will be able to see no matter what happens to its eyes. A creature with no extravision and eyes is, as you'd expect, blind.

I see. But what if we mod the dwarves to be blind from the get go? Or maybe we could make a caste of blind dwarves versus seeing ones and compare.

[Meph]

Hasnt this all been done before?  Blind archers shoot in a random direction, blind civilians will ignore enemies till melee, blind fighters will ignore enemies till melee, but will react normally to kill and move commands, as soon as they start melee they never leave their target till its dead, blind siege engineers shoot as well as before, but wont run away... (sorry to spoil the fun)

[Urist Da Vinci]

Hasnt this all been done before?  Blind archers shoot in a random direction, blind civilians will ignore enemies till melee, blind fighters will ignore enemies till melee, but will react normally to kill and move commands, as soon as they start melee they never leave their target till its dead, blind siege engineers shoot as well as before, but wont run away... (sorry to spoil the fun)

It doesn't hurt to verify the old results in the latest version of the game. Peer review and all that. For example, the blind archer randomly shooting was from 40d or an earlier version.

[itg]

Hasnt this all been done before?  Blind archers shoot in a random direction, blind civilians will ignore enemies till melee, blind fighters will ignore enemies till melee, but will react normally to kill and move commands, as soon as they start melee they never leave their target till its dead, blind siege engineers shoot as well as before, but wont run away... (sorry to spoil the fun)

As far as I can tell, it's virtually all rumors and anecdotal evidence. At any rate, I haven't found anything with the forum's awful search function. Even if we know what results to expect, it'll be nice to have some quantitative data. Yeah, we know blind dwarves are worse at crafting, but how much worse, etc.

I haven't had much time for DF the last few days, but here are some early results:




Trading

Subject:

Goden Sarveshtimnar, broker

Relevant skills:

Legendary Appraiser
Novice judge of intent
Novice negotiator
Novice in 5-6 conversational skills

Prodedure:

The trader offered a highly favorable trade to maximize human merchant's disposition, then offered a variety of trades to gauge the minimum profit margin the merchant would accept. For simplicity, I assumed factors other than profit margin would average out. The trader was blinded, then the experiment was repeated.

Results:

Sighted, the trader was able to see prices and judge the merchant's disposition as usual. I didn't record the exact items traded, but it seemed very consistent over about 10 trades that the merchant required a profit margin of just over 30%.

Blind, the trader could see prices, but he could not judge the merchant's disposition. The trader's negotiating abilities appeared to suffer, as the merchant tended to demand a profit margin closer to 50%.

This wasn't a fully rigorous experiment. Ideally, one would make a logical series of trades with the sighted dwarf, record them, savescum, blind the dwarf, repeat those trades, then compare the results. I think it gets the point across, though.




Engraving

Subject:

Udil Lertethfath

Relevant skills:

Legendary Engraver

Procedure:

The dwarf was locked in a 12x17 room and ordered to smooth and engrave it. She was then blinded and given an identical room to smooth and engrave.

Results:

The blind dwarf smoothed and engraved at exactly the same speed as she did when she could see. The quality of engravings took a serious hit, though. The data:

Sighted:

Masterful - 57
Exceptional - 147
Total - 204

Blind:

Masterful - 24
Exceptional - 105
Superior - 70
Fine - 5
Total - 204

The subject matter of engravings did not seem to be affected. The fine-quality engraving seemed more likely to be simplistic (they usually are, I think), but the sample size was too small to make a conclusive judgment.

It would be nice to figure out the effective skill level of the blind engraver, probably by having a dwarf at each skill level engrave a 12x17 room, then comparing that data to my results above. I only have legendaries and non-engravers on hand, so that's a project that will have to wait unless someone else wants to help out.

[Urist Da Vinci]

How are you getting dwarves into the dusting room?

[laularukyrumo]

Interestingly, it's surprising nobody's thought to go the modding route for a reliable source of blindness. It's not hard to make an interaction with the tag that lets you enable it in arena mode, similar to how you spawn vamps/werecreatures/undead/necromancers/whatever, and make it blind creatures with laser precision. For bonus points, since you'd have to use a syndrome granted by interaction anyways, you could slap the syndrome onto a plant and give it [SYN_INGESTED] for fort/adv mode testing outside of arena.

But grats on the catch, dude.

[Urist Da Vinci]

Interestingly, it's surprising nobody's thought to go the modding route for a reliable source of blindness. It's not hard to make an interaction with the tag that lets you enable it in arena mode, similar to how you spawn vamps/werecreatures/undead/necromancers/whatever, and make it blind creatures with laser precision. For bonus points, since you'd have to use a syndrome granted by interaction anyways, you could slap the syndrome onto a plant and give it [SYN_INGESTED] for fort/adv mode testing outside of arena.

But grats on the catch, dude.

OK, doing this.

Interesting. Blind creatures, even with grand master dodging, won't dodge incoming attacks. They aren't helpless like unconscious creatures, and armor still provides the usual protection, but they really suck at combat. The blind creatures don't attempt to find creatures that shoot at them from a distance either - they just stand there and take it.

You can enter and exit stealth with a line of sight to a blind creature - when the game says that you can't hide because someone can see you, it really means it! You can only be detected if you occupy the same tile as a blind creature - attacking it from an adjacent tile doesn't ruin your stealth.