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Yes. Text gets cut off too often.

No. I dont care/like the names as they are.

Dont you have anything better to do then making such tiny adjustements?

[Dwarf_Eater]

I just love this idea of harder-to-get-everything.
I'd take it even step further: introduce specific tools required for jobs in building, as carpenter tools, butcher's knife, blacksmith's hammer. I know that then it'd be impossible to build workshops in the beggining as long as specific tools wouldn't be chosen on embark screen. Then I would introduce toolbox (chosen on every premade embark profile) with some value eg. 100 (not to embark with 100 tools of a kind), which in storage workshop (i don't remember how was it named - workshop which unpacks crates) would be unpacked. Such emarked-with tools would be from worthless material, eg. stone, but would allow to make early workshops as kitchen, butchery, mason, carpenter, which of two last could make more tools, for more and better workshops, for more complicated tools etc. etc.
I just love overly complicated realism :3
Of course this, along with invention/blueprint system MUST be implemented and thoroughly explained in manual, as DF is complicated game by itself, and newly introduced to mod players would find it just too hard.
aaaand i just remembered that vanilla workshops can't be edited :/ but the suggestions can be applied for custom workshops

About blueprints: would it be impossible to make "blueprint copy" from either "blueprint" or said "blueprint copy"? If making it one reaction could be done, it's be great.
blueprint/blueprint copy => blueprint/blueprint copy + blueprint copy
And of course blueprint copy would be worthless while trading and would take ages to be done.
And if not, building only one workshop from one blueprint can be explained pretty simply:
Imagine it as permission gained from mountainhomes. Or even change the name to "permission". If I'd be the king of dorfs, I'd raze that tiny dorfy settlement copying sacred, ancient, badass, dwarven technology and selling it to pesky elves. Seriously in middle ages technology secrets were desperately tried to be kept, so I suppose this would be the same.

[Meph]

Blueprints are just a technical drawing. Since I have specific scientific discoveries for each building, I thought a generic blueprint will do. I know it sounds all too complicated for people that havent seen it ingame, but it is very simple. Thanks to the announcements mostly, because you absolutely know when what part gets done.

Tools for jobs I wont do. I tried that with mortar and pestle, but dwarves do one reaction with it, then cancel the second because some other dwarf wants to stockpile the tools. They dont keep them in the workshops, but instead carry them away into stockpiles. Thats why I use tools only as buildmats, for example jug,jug,mortar,pestle for the alchemist and chemist.

I cant, and wont add anything like this to the vanilla workshops, I dont want to alienate people. I try to not touch vanilla content. Only thing is soap, alloys and pets thats different.

The new Toolmakers Workshop does exactly what you described btw, but atm only for advanced workshops. Its valves and boilers and dies and printing plates, complex things, not hammer or carving knife.

[silentdeth]

- Armorsets produce a helm, breastplate, greaves, 2 gauntlets, 2 boots. They need 12 bars and 4 coke.

Where is the mail shirts?
The armory can already do this, why not give this something else? Maybe make 10 of a single item or something, better yet upgrade a whole suit of armor to plate.
 

- Making a two-handed weapon requires 1 scabbard (tool from craftsdwarf/forge), 1 weapon hilt (tool from craftsdwarf/forge), 1 unit of leather (for the hilt-wrapping) and either a weapon blade or weapon head (tool from greatforge).

Scabbards for 2h weapons? That doesn't make sense. They are mostly for only swords. A big 2h hammer in a scabbard? That just makes my brain hurt.

To me this seems like a really bad idea. Not only is it an arbitrary increase in difficulty, it would increase the tedium involved in making weapons as well as the stockpile management, something that is already pretty poor.

If the problem is people are only using one item, or a few items, then the process to make the items isn't the issue. It is the items usefulness relative to the alternatives.

This is a building I would just turn off. Tedium is not fun, nor fun. The end result of this will be people buying early 2h weapons from merchants and then upgrading them, skipping this whole annoying process.

New Workshop: Inventor's Workbench
 Note: This workshop is very randomized and can give overpowered or useless items. Its designed that way, so dont ask why an orcish sappers satchel doesnt work, or why you cant make ammo for the kobold totem-sling. Dwarven inventors do not care for such things. Many special items are designed to work with a specific type of material only, and they will not show their full functionality. This is intended.
 - These random items can be foreign or dwarven, powerful or broken.

Don't give me useless items to clog up the game and lower FPS. Either give me nothing, or something that works. Failing that maybe a 'failed experiment' tool that can be melted down or something.

- Creating random items costs 1 coke, 3 metal bars and 1 spring-steel precision tool, which has a 50% chance to be preserved.

Far too expensive. And why can't I just use magma? They dwarfs damn it, you think they are going to experiment with charred, dead trees? Dwarfs just cut them down to piss off the elves. Everyone knows !!Science!! is better with magma.

- The Inventor Workbench can also copy any foreign item. This costs 1 coke and 3 metal bars, and has a 85% chance of success, and a 15% chance to destroy the original. The copy will take on the material of the metal that is used in the reaction.

quite useful.

[Meph]

- Armorsets produce a helm, breastplate, greaves, 2 gauntlets, 2 boots. They need 12 bars and 4 coke.

Where is the mail shirts?
The armory can already do this, why not give this something else? Maybe make 10 of a single item or something, better yet upgrade a whole suit of armor to plate.

Mailshirts?
The armory can no longer do this, but instead make whole plate armor sets.
 

- Making a two-handed weapon requires 1 scabbard (tool from craftsdwarf/forge), 1 weapon hilt (tool from craftsdwarf/forge), 1 unit of leather (for the hilt-wrapping) and either a weapon blade or weapon head (tool from greatforge).

Scabbards for 2h weapons? That doesn't make sense. They are mostly for only swords. A big 2h hammer in a scabbard? That just makes my brain hurt.

Good point. Its just that scabbard was one of the items brought up in the crafts-thread as a possibility.

To me this seems like a really bad idea. Not only is it an arbitrary increase in difficulty, it would increase the tedium involved in making weapons as well as the stockpile management, something that is already pretty poor.

Correct. Which is a good thing from my perspective. You make a normal weapon, you take the normal process. You want a more powerful weapon, you have to pay more.

If the problem is people are only using one item, or a few items, then the process to make the items isn't the issue. It is the items usefulness relative to the alternatives.

No, its the items price thats the problem. Better weapons and shields can be made at (almost) the same cost at the same place at the same time. Thats the problem. With the new system you definetily have the forge before you can build a greatforge, creating a chain of progress.

This is a building I would just turn off. Tedium is not fun, nor fun. The end result of this will be people buying early 2h weapons from merchants and then upgrading them, skipping this whole annoying process.

I might toggle two-handed weapons together with the workshop, once I work on the UI again.

New Workshop: Inventor's Workbench
 Note: This workshop is very randomized and can give overpowered or useless items. Its designed that way, so dont ask why an orcish sappers satchel doesnt work, or why you cant make ammo for the kobold totem-sling. Dwarven inventors do not care for such things. Many special items are designed to work with a specific type of material only, and they will not show their full functionality. This is intended.
 - These random items can be foreign or dwarven, powerful or broken.

Don't give me useless items to clog up the game and lower FPS. Either give me nothing, or something that works. Failing that maybe a 'failed experiment' tool that can be melted down or something.

I dont give you anything, but the possibility. You chose to create them or not. It should simulate a weapon/armorsmith mood, that has a random outcome.

- Creating random items costs 1 coke, 3 metal bars and 1 spring-steel precision tool, which has a 50% chance to be preserved.

Far too expensive. And why can't I just use magma? They dwarfs damn it, you think they are going to experiment with charred, dead trees? Dwarfs just cut them down to piss off the elves. Everyone knows !!Science!! is better with magma.

Expensive? That makes no sense at all. Weapons need 1-5 bars and coke, Armors 1-3 bars and coke, why should I make the inventor cheaper... people would just spam the items here and copy them then. I think 3 bars to make a copy of a Dai-Katana or Battleaxe of Armok is cheap. The magmaversion of course needs no coke.

- The Inventor Workbench can also copy any foreign item. This costs 1 coke and 3 metal bars, and has a 85% chance of success, and a 15% chance to destroy the original. The copy will take on the material of the metal that is used in the reaction.

quite useful.

[Meph]

Silentdeth, if you love arbritary increase in difficulty, you will love this idea (and its only that, an idea, I havent modded anything like that, but it has been in my todo/idea list, for quite some time already.)

ROCK PROCESSOR UNIT => Remove [ITEMS_HARD] from stone_template and remove all ores. => use the boulders dropped from mining for reactions in the Rock Processor, they cant be used for anything else => Generate boulders you can use in the mason, and ore that can be smelted, in controlled amounts. Rock Boulders, Gravel, Ore, Base Minerals, Rare Fossils, Gems could be found. Adds a refining step to mining, which would result in a rise in either workforce needed, or in slower mining industry. Would make wooden furniture more attractive, which makes sense. Felling trees is easier then digging tunnels deep underground, at least it should be.

*Would also fix the issues with slag bars that can be used in moods/buildmats.
*would allow addition of a rock-waste system, similar to slag. Gravel, toxic base minerals (arsenic, orpiment, realgar), dust affecting breathing and vision.
*could link item creation to amount of mining did, same as I do with smelting. 1% chance for orichalcum atm, so mining could have a 1% chance to discover a lost artefact, or something similar.
*could allow a value-based upgrade system, similar to wood. Rough wood => smoothed wood => polished wood. Raw Rock => Smoothed Rock => Engraved Rock. "This is a engraved rock table"

Only reason its not in the mod is that it alters vanilla processes, and I dont like to force people to something. You dont like the greatforge? Fine, dont use it. You dont like the Rock Processor? Well, you cant use rock then, good luck. Although it would be easy to toggle.

Info RL:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rockbreaker
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusher

[silentdeth]

Mailshirts?
Yeah, Mail shirts. As in chainmail. That you wear over the breastplate/platemail. Do you not use them when you play?

Expensive? That makes no sense at all. Weapons need 1-5 bars and coke, Armors 1-3 bars and coke, why should I make the inventor cheaper... people would just spam the items here and copy them then. I think 3 bars to make a copy of a Dai-Katana or Battleaxe of Armok is cheap. The magmaversion of course needs no coke.

Is it the spring steel I find expensive. I'm worried about getting a situation like I'm in now in my world where no caravans show up for years. I don't know how you altered the minerals, but I can see myself running out of <metal you needed to make spring steel> and then being completely stuck. That is if I hadn't gotten the trade license earlier.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Code: [Select]

[ITEM_WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_AXE_BATTLE_ARMOK]
[NAME:battle axe of armok:battle axes of armok]
[SIZE:600]
[SKILL:AXE]
[TWO_HANDED:47500]
[MINIMUM_SIZE:42500]
[MATERIAL_SIZE:900]
[ATTACK:EDGE:40000:6000:hack:hacks:NO_SUB:1250]
[ATTACK:BLUNT:40000:6000:slap:slaps:flat:1250]
[ATTACK:BLUNT:250:4000:strike:strikes:pommel:1000]


Code: [Select]

[ITEM_WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_AXE_BATTLE]
[NAME:battle axe:battle axes]
[SIZE:800]
[SKILL:AXE]
[TWO_HANDED:47500]
[MINIMUM_SIZE:42500]
[MATERIAL_SIZE:9]YES
[ATTACK:EDGE:40000:6000:hack:hacks:NO_SUB:1250]
[ATTACK:BLUNT:40000:6000:slap:slaps:flat:1250]
[ATTACK:BLUNT:100:1000:strike:strikes:pommel:1000]
[ATTACK:EDGE:5000:5000:lacerate:lacerates:blade:1250]
[ATTACK:EDGE:40000:12000:relentlessly hew:relentlessly hews:full force:2000]
[ATTACK:EDGE:40000:6000:emphatically slice:emphatically slices:honed axeblade:1800]
[ATTACK:EDGE:50000:10000:make an undercut swing at:makes an undercut swing at:power:2000]
[ATTACK:EDGE:50000:10000:make a backhanded strike at:makes a backhanded strike at:NO_SUB:2000]
[ATTACK:EDGE:15000:18000:whirl around and cleave:whirls around and cleaves:heavy blade:1500]
[ATTACK:EDGE:20000:22000:whirl around with outstretched arms and cleave:whirls around with outstretched arms and cleaves:axe head:3000]


Why exactly would I want a battle axe of Armok? I'd melt the useless thing back down if I got one of those.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Code: [Select]

[ITEM_WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_KATANA_2H]
[NAME:dai-katana:dai-katanas]
[SIZE:1800]
[SKILL:SWORD]
[TWO_HANDED:77500]
[MINIMUM_SIZE:52500]
[MATERIAL_SIZE:4]
[ATTACK:EDGE:60000:10000:hack:hacks:NO_SUB:1700]
[ATTACK:EDGE:60000:10000:slash:slashes:NO_SUB:1700]
[ATTACK:BLUNT:60000:6000:slap:slaps:flat:1250]
[ATTACK:BLUNT:250:4000:strike:strikes:pommel:1000]
[ATTACK:EDGE:60000:12000:relentlessly hew:relentlessly hews:full force:2000]

Code: [Select]

[ITEM_WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_SWORD_HANDER_ZWEI]
German 2-handed sword. Longest two handed sword to ever exist.
[NAME:zweihander:zweihander]
[SIZE:1200]
[SKILL:SWORD]
[TWO_HANDED:77500]
[MINIMUM_SIZE:57500]
[MATERIAL_SIZE:15]
[ATTACK:EDGE:100000:11000:slash:slashes:forward edge:2500]
[ATTACK:EDGE:100000:11000:slash:slashes:reverse edge:2500]
[ATTACK:EDGE:100000:11000:sidestep and slash:sidesteps and slashes:forward edge:2500]
[ATTACK:EDGE:100000:11000:sidestep and slash:sidesteps and slashes:reverse edge:2500]
[ATTACK:EDGE:100000:11000:quickly slash:quickly slashes:partial edge:2500]
[ATTACK:EDGE:100000:11000:make an undercut swing at:makes an undercut swing at:NO_SUB:2000]
[ATTACK:EDGE:100000:11000:slash:slashes:sharp blade:2500]
[ATTACK:BLUNT:100000:8000:slap:slaps:flat:1250]
[ATTACK:BLUNT:1000:3000:strike:strikes:pommel:1000]
[ATTACK:EDGE:50:10000:run through:runs through:tip:4100]
[ATTACK:EDGE:15000:18000:whirl around and slash:whirls around and slashes:long blade:1500]
[ATTACK:EDGE:20000:22000:whirl around with outstretched arms and slash:whirls around with outstretched arms and slashes:long blade:3000]


Or a Dai-Katana? Maybe if I leave them outside the Frost giants will put down their zweihanders and try to use these instead? That doesn't even take into account the upgrades.

Silentdeth, if you love arbritary increase in difficulty, you will love this idea (and its only that, an idea, I havent modded anything like that, but it has been in my todo/idea list, for quite some time already.)

ROCK PROCESSOR UNIT => Remove [ITEMS_HARD] from stone_template and remove all ores. => use the boulders dropped from mining for reactions in the Rock Processor, they cant be used for anything else => Generate boulders you can use in the mason, and ore that can be smelted, in controlled amounts. Rock Boulders, Gravel, Ore, Base Minerals, Rare Fossils, Gems could be found. Adds a refining step to mining, which would result in a rise in either workforce needed, or in slower mining industry. Would make wooden furniture more attractive, which makes sense. Felling trees is easier then digging tunnels deep underground, at least it should be.

*Would also fix the issues with slag bars that can be used in moods/buildmats.
*would allow addition of a rock-waste system, similar to slag. Gravel, toxic base minerals (arsenic, orpiment, realgar), dust affecting breathing and vision.
*could link item creation to amount of mining did, same as I do with smelting. 1% chance for orichalcum atm, so mining could have a 1% chance to discover a lost artefact, or something similar.
*could allow a value-based upgrade system, similar to wood. Rough wood => smoothed wood => polished wood. Raw Rock => Smoothed Rock => Engraved Rock. "This is a engraved rock table"

Only reason its not in the mod is that it alters vanilla processes, and I dont like to force people to something. You dont like the greatforge? Fine, dont use it. You dont like the Rock Processor? Well, you cant use rock then, good luck. Although it would be easy to toggle.

Info RL:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rockbreaker
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusher

Your just trying to scare me at this point aren't ya? This is just silly, those machines are designed to take input from industrial mining, not things mined by hand. It isn't like people were not able to carve stone by hand for millennia before they came along. I'm sorry Urist McBaron but we cannot build your wall, everyone suddenly forgot how to use a freaking chisel.

EDIT: Couldn't get this idea out of my head:

"Yes Urist, What is it?"

"No you can't build with that you have to take it to the rock crusher first."

"Yes, I see you have a battle axe."

"Yes, I saw you cleave that steel-clad Orc in twain."

"And the dragon."

"Yes, Yes, and all of those too."

"Your axe? On the rock? No, no that wouldn't work."

"Why? Oh, um, because you see this rock here is made out of sandstone."

"And? Oh, and, um...Well your axe would... You see the angle of the strike and the taper of the blade... It would offend Armok, thats why."

"Why? Oh, yes, yes see, because Armok doesn't like you using weapons on the helpless."

"WHAT! Oh Armok no, you can most assuredly still kill elves."

"Yes, yes the arena with all of the naked prisoners is still fine."

"The traders too, yes, yes."

"What? Oh. Well they might technically be considered helpless but Armok only cares about helpless stone."

"No! No, don't go release the caged colossus, that is still OK."

"Just helpless inanimate stone."

"That boulder, no you can't use that either."

"Why? Because you see that is made out of ice..."

[Meph]

 

No, I am quite serious about the intermediate step while mining. at the very least for the ore... => Mine Inorganic => Produce Boulder => Crush mineral-bearing rock => Produce Gravel + Ore => Bring Ore to Smelter + Bring Gravel to Concrete Maker/Whatever gravel can be used for.

Spring-Steel is Steel+Nickel. Nickel can be transmutet at the alchemist, bought from caravans, bought from the merchant stalls, or mined. And its 0,5 spring-steel bars per reaction. Maybe I should make it 0,1, I just wanted to simulate the need for tools.

Mh... But a polish rock or engrave furniture reaction wouldnt be too bad... take "granite table", value 10, make "engraved granite table", value 20. But putting smooth/engraved version of all rocks would triple the stone stockpile menus of course. Would make Engravers more usefull, because after the initial dining room, the bedrooms and occasional slabs, they dont do much.

Images of how I envision it:

Spoiler: Rough Stone Table (click to show/hide)

Spoiler: Smooth Stone Table (click to show/hide)

Spoiler: Engraved Stone Table (click to show/hide)

[silentdeth]

I think that kind of detail work is implied by the quality level. Why else would a masterwork table be worth so much? Because it is really, really sturdy? Well... I guess that might be important for all of those parties...

[Meph]

True, but it still is a valid way to use an under-used labor (engraving) to raise the value of your fort and add more flavor. It would be a very minor addition, with not many reactions tied to it. Somewhat of the same category as the painter, decorator, artisan, all this "value and tradegood and design" stuff.

[Z1000000m]

True, but it still is a valid way to use an under-used labor (engraving) to raise the value of your fort and add more flavor. It would be a very minor addition, with not many reactions tied to it. Somewhat of the same category as the painter, decorator, artisan, all this "value and tradegood and design" stuff.

Im sorry, but what?

In vanilla, with newer versions it takes ages to buildup engraver skill. With mdf it takes twice as much time. This means that if you want to have something done, you will throw 10+ dissectors at the issue. That is unless you mean that the (improved) item will have a new quality level. If so, then following with the first line of my posts, you'd end up with (improved) items that are actually worthless than the base item.

[Meph]

Boulder => Smoothed Boulder => Engraved Boulder.

Problem solved. Just two reactions added to the stonecutters workshop. Raises the value of non-economic rock. Then all the craftsmen can take it for furniture. This way a "Masterwork Granite Table" will not become a "Well Made Engraved Granite Table". Mh... in the end its just decoration, I could also use improvements for that. "This is a granite table, it is circled with bands of obsidian, covered with studs of gold".

All very low priority, its just decoration and values.

[Z1000000m]

Are you serious Meph?


I nearly choked myself laughing at your apprently serious application of insane troll logic.
Just lol.

[Meph]

Yes, you engrave the boulder before you make a craft from it, because the craft will then have engravings. Its flawless. 

[jimboo]

Yes, you engrave the boulder before you make a craft from it, because the craft will then have engravings. Its flawless. 

It's dwarfy.

[Meph]

He. Using single bones for custom reactions. The only problem I see is that legendary bonecarvers will make masterwork bone stacks that give bad thoughts when you make items from them.