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[Sergarr]

Or team up with the other side and, you know, not get steamrolled.

What other side?

[Mattk50]

On the other end of the scale, it also gets boring if the entire game-universe is at peace, ruled by a giant super-alliance of the most powerful empires.

The thing that so many people don't understand about these kind of games is that you NEED the assholes and the peaceful people.  If it's just assholes no ones really doing anything besides wrecking everything and with just peaceful people you get no conflict. 

All these hermits need to realize that you can JOIN the assholes "ruining" the game.  They'll ignore you AND you'll actually join the community.  You don't even need to do anything other than just be social.  Hell, you may even eventually join in doing something fun.

Why I would to join assholes? They're ASSHOLES.

In this case, people are using the term asshole to describe anyone not a carebear. In reality they're just people who also actually use that whole invasion and combat system that's in a game.

[Sergarr]

On the other end of the scale, it also gets boring if the entire game-universe is at peace, ruled by a giant super-alliance of the most powerful empires.

The thing that so many people don't understand about these kind of games is that you NEED the assholes and the peaceful people.  If it's just assholes no ones really doing anything besides wrecking everything and with just peaceful people you get no conflict. 

All these hermits need to realize that you can JOIN the assholes "ruining" the game.  They'll ignore you AND you'll actually join the community.  You don't even need to do anything other than just be social.  Hell, you may even eventually join in doing something fun.

Why I would to join assholes? They're ASSHOLES.

In this case, people are using the term asshole to describe anyone not a carebear. In reality they're just people who also actually use that whole invasion and combat system that's in a game.

Which results in all players not interested in combat eventually leaving the game, then one alliance winning over the rest, which causes them to quit, and then the players of that alliance get bored and leave.

End result - nobody plays the game. It's dead. And this is an inevitable result of completely unlimited PVP.

[Shadowlord]

That's funny, that's exactly the opposite of Hazeron's early history from when PTMC ruled the galaxy with an iron fist, striking everyone near them on the flimsiest suspicion of harboring "terrorists*". If memory serves, Haxus declared them the winner and reset, and the next galaxy didn't start with them having an entrenched high tech empire. They eventually got one of them entangling alliances and found themselves and most of the known galaxy at war with Tymas (who PTMC had beaten in the aforementioned galaxy, I believe). Most of the galaxy surrendered. The war ended in a truce when Haxus thought it would be cool to inflict then-incurable plagues on most of the galaxy. When those were mostly resolved, he inflicted pirates because freighters needed a third way to die horribly, I guess. (the others being sundiving and atmodiving)

* actually really real instead of an excuse space freedom fighters, though everyone thought it was just an excuse

[Sergarr]

Haxus declared them the winner and reset

Haxus thought it would be cool to inflict then-incurable plagues on most of the galaxy. When those were mostly resolved, he inflicted pirates

If you have a GM constantly fucking everything and everybody around - sure, you can maintain some balance. But I don't consider that to be a normal mode of play. Once it stops, it goes towards formation of 1 supreme oppressor which forces everybody else to cower before them or quit the game - and over time people will chose the second one.

[Shadowlord]

Except in something with multi-person empires you can just set up somewhere else, recruit people (from inside or outside the game), found a better, stronger, empire, and build up and train for your eventual face-off with your enemy (if they don't get bored and quit themselves from lack of anyone to challenge them).

Especially if you can fly half a galaxy away to prepare and they can't find you.

[Sergarr]

they can't find you.

That's gonna be problematic. If you intend to fight them, then you must gather forces, and that leaves a pretty significant foot-print in the net. All competent supreme oppressors will soon know that somebody plots against them, and after that it's just the matter of time until the next recruit you allow into your anti-oppression alliance will be actually a spy for them and will give away your position, after which you can close down the shop because everybody will die.

[Shadowlord]

Ah, but now you've proven my point, because that's what happened with Tymas - except with a different outcome. A spy revealed that Tymas was plotting against PTMC and Rik'Tan*, who got all outraged and declared war on Tymas (IIRC Rik'Tan declared for both). Without preparing properly. They also dragged their tiny one-man empire allies into it. Tymas basically crushed every fleet that came up against them (It helped that they were all technologically inferior), threw them back, and started taking their territory, which led to the smaller allies panicking and surrendering and dropping out of Rik'Tan's alliance (The Foundation).

* Plotting to make PTMC think that Rik'Tan was attacking them, using alts in a fake Rik'Tan empire. PTMC believed it for the very short time until the spy revealed it, IIRC.

I'm not the only one here who should remember it, although I didn't fight in the war - I was several dozen sectors away at the time.

(That spy was in the Tymas IRC channel. Of course it's possible it was just someone who didn't approve of the use of that exploit (to make an empire with an identical-looking name and use it in a false flag attack).)

[Shadowlord]

I can agree with that.

[Mattk50]

End result - nobody plays the game. It's dead. And this is an inevitable result of completely unlimited PVP.

The inevitable result of unlimited PVP is that those without any ability in diplomacy or leadership will get kicked to the curb. I suppose that's what happened to you?

[Shadowlord]

There's always a need for foot soldiers.

[Sergarr]

End result - nobody plays the game. It's dead. And this is an inevitable result of completely unlimited PVP.

The inevitable result of unlimited PVP is that those without any ability in diplomacy or leadership will get kicked to the curb. I suppose that's what happened to you?

I've never played any of these games, actually. I just observed several games of this type and even saw one of them basically follow the entire way through (Haven & Hearth).

[Mattk50]

End result - nobody plays the game. It's dead. And this is an inevitable result of completely unlimited PVP.

The inevitable result of unlimited PVP is that those without any ability in diplomacy or leadership will get kicked to the curb. I suppose that's what happened to you?

I've never played any of these games, actually. I just observed several games of this type and even saw one of them basically follow the entire way through (Haven & Hearth).

In that case, you should try some and you'll probably change your opinion. The human element can't be underestimated in these games.

That said, a lot of it is balance. an improperly balanced game without mechanics that would graph as a pair of intersecting curves does pretty much doom you to the type of endgame scenerio you described. A very basic example: if "defense" on an empire scale in a game is both linear and stronger than offense, then a balance will never be struck and you get very long lasting forever empires, but if offense is linear and stronger than defense then you never get any long establishments. you need to make it so both of them scale depending on factors such as size, resources, effeciency, layout etc then meet somewhere in the middle (therefore the curve), or you get a linear on/off of who wins in the end.

if youvce ever seen a supply/demand curve you know what im on about

[Chiefwaffles]

So, uh. I'm doing a mini-necro because there's been an interesting update.

See the update for 6/19/15.

[Aklyon]

But do you see it happen?