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Author Topic: The revolutionary design bureau, under new management  (Read 63697 times)

Morrigi

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Re: The revolutionary design bureau, under new management
« Reply #285 on: May 04, 2013, 09:35:23 am »

If we lengthened the tank chassis, removed some armor, and mounted two or three heavy machine guns instead of a heavy weapon we would have a cheaper APC still capable of defending itself against light armor of the time. I propose that the vehicle, if produced, be named the Chimera.

EDIT: Brood, there is a reason that APCs of the era were lightly armed. We cannot fit 16 troops and a heavy weapons system into even a modified tank chassis without it starting to look like a schoolbus, with combat ability to match. The first true IFV was not mass-produced until the 1960s and only carried 8 passengers. This vehicle was the BMP-1.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2013, 09:40:31 am by Morrigi »
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Brood

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Re: The revolutionary design bureau, under new management
« Reply #286 on: May 04, 2013, 10:20:02 am »

You can fit more but it's a little tight, but the idea was an APC that can fight a tank otherwise it's suicide to use it for rapid response.

But I'll edit it when I get home. Mesor work me out a tank destroyer I'm gonna need it to pair with the APC.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2013, 10:32:03 am by Brood »
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3_14159

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Re: The revolutionary design bureau, under new management
« Reply #287 on: May 04, 2013, 11:52:39 am »

I read the thread until here, and it was really, really interesting. Let me weigh in with a few modifications and proposals.

15, I propose a larger variant of the badger keeping it's double engines and heavier slanted armor while extending the rear compartment to enable it to contain 16 men, it should also have gun slits on both sides to enable men inside to fire out but have an armored window that can be latched into place to block the slits when required and have a tow bar on the back.

It should be designed to have 3 different main weapons, the standard badger cannon, the hydra badgers guns or a heavy flamethrower naming the 3 units the Badger IFV, the Hydra IFV and the Leviathan IFV.

Counterproposal 15.1: Design an Multipurpose Armored Car, with the following priorities:
- Main driver's cabin armored against small-arms fire
- Engine power to enable it towing a fairly heavy load, plus a coupling.
- Probably half-tracked to allow it traversing rough terrain while retaining a fair amount of speed.
- If possible without too much cost, add a short-range radio to all of them.
- Concentrate on cost cutting!


The idea is for the MAC to form the basis for several variants, for example APC or armored gun tow vehicle. It is as cheap as possible, foregoing all protection against tanks and will need to operate in a tank-less environment. Why? Well, if it meets any enemy tanks with own tanks near them, either the enemy doesn't shoot at them, then it doesn't matter, or they do, and can't shoot the tanks. Of course, it can't kill tanks by itself, but without AT rockets, that's pretty much a given. If it meets tanks alone, unless they're equally armed (and remember, this thing transports an additional eight soldiers) it's dead.




Variant 15.1.1: On the MAC, design an armored personnel carrier, designated MAC-A:
- Add a compartment or up to eight soldiers and their gear, armored all around except bottom against small arms fire. Add a door to allow embarking ideally in the back, possibly firing slits.
- Add one the Patriot machine guns on there. Try mounting it in a similarly armored turret
- Again, costs and simplicity are important.


The thought is for this to deploy a half-squad in a tank-less environment, and provide suppression fire for the half-squad. Cheap as possible.

Variant 15.1.2 On the MAC chassis, design a lighter armed APC, designated MAC-B:
- Add a compartment or up to eight soldiers and their gear, armored all around except top and bottom against small arms fire. Add a door to allow embarking ideally in the back, possibly firing slits. Top open, with a net to be hooked in.
- Add a single Patriotism machine gun, mounted with a firing shield.
- Need I mention costs?


Basically the same as above but cheaper and lighter.


Variant 15.1.3: Field Gun Carrier, designated MAC-C:
- Add an unarmored compartment for a gun crew (maybe 4-6 people), and ammo storage for the gun.
- Add a shielded Patriotism MG.


Use to tow field guns on the field, then stay near them and provide ammo storage and (once counter battery fire gets in) provide quick relocation. MG for self-defense.


For later: Self-propelled AT gun, Mac-D:
- Once the 40mm AT gun finishes, try mounting it on the chassis fixed forward.
Possibly a cheap, mobile AT gun design. Not yet done, but let's wait until the AT gun is finished.

The whole point is building something like the SdKfz. 251 or the M3 series: Transport infantry, provide a bit of fire support and do some other roles like transporting. While using a standardized system for all of these will be tactically worse, it also provides us the ability to produce the basis in a single factory, while every peasant with a hammer can mount the mods and they are easy to design. So, cheaper, lightens logistical load and can be modified better.
I vote to set our best engineer on the MAC chassis (15.1), as that'll probably the most used platform of our military if the proposal gets through. Possibly after the tank is finished.
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Ukrainian Ranger

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Re: The revolutionary design bureau, under new management
« Reply #288 on: May 04, 2013, 12:27:00 pm »

I kinda like the above, but yet again: We have a limited number of engineers and need to finish those heavy tank ( Still sure that we don't really need it, Badgers are adequate for all tasks, while we are seriously underpowered  in artillery, navy, airforce, recon, fortifications, air defense, transportation... But people here consider  preparing for possible enemy "KV-1s" as more important. )

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Brood

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Re: The revolutionary design bureau, under new management
« Reply #289 on: May 04, 2013, 12:32:29 pm »

Looks good other then it carries less people and has almost no fire power and horribly weak armor....

U R your a broken record, we think 1 thing we think another get over it and stop repeating it in every message.
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Ukrainian Ranger

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Re: The revolutionary design bureau, under new management
« Reply #290 on: May 04, 2013, 12:54:11 pm »

APCs don't need firepower that much, because they are transports, not combat vehicles.
Also you fail to understand that armor and firepower are not the only characteristics that important.
Cost, reliability, speed (cruise, not max), all terrain ability, serviceability, fuel efficiency, running cost, universality, stealth, vision, safety and many others are more important on strategical scale
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War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend.

Brood

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Re: The revolutionary design bureau, under new management
« Reply #291 on: May 04, 2013, 01:09:37 pm »

I hear a wind blowing from Ukrain....

Now onto more productive things.
Thank you the two of you with counter ideas, I'll modify my idea to include the strengths from yours when I get home and of course give all credit to the two of you, I think I have the right idea now to get what I wanted with less work.
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Funk

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Re: The revolutionary design bureau, under new management
« Reply #292 on: May 04, 2013, 01:19:29 pm »

Let the engineers give the SMG another try, but use the 9mm short cartridge from our earlier pistol, and reduce magazine size to 30-40 round drum/stick mags.

6. Apply improvements to existing products, and make use of trophy carbines for the army when possible/needed.

8. Apply spare workers to churning out SVA-10s and the like, but airforce and navy take precedence.

i vote for these.

id of liked  a 8mm SMG to save on the barrel making tools (why do you think russan used 7.62 for everything?)
Still a mild 9x25 loading should give use a good 400 meters per second, with a 8 gram bullet, about as good as .45ACP but with better range.
 

i vote for a counter proposal against 13, we do have a good 14mm round lets use it, we have a gap from 14 to 40mm, a 25mm autocannon is what we need
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Agree, plus that's about the LAST thing *I* want to see from this kind of game - author spending valuable development time on useless graphics.

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Nadaka

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Re: The revolutionary design bureau, under new management
« Reply #293 on: May 04, 2013, 01:44:26 pm »

This is taking longer than I thought, but I should only have to do it once. Note that I am still going back to compile the design list.


This is the remainder of the yesterdays partial update.
This is a partial update:
...

This is the remainder of yesterdays partial update.

On the agenda for this years production are Righteous PT boats, expand the shipyard up to at least 2000 tons and as a slightly lower priority Hydra AA vehicles.

Righteous PT boats: 54 novice workers. 60 workers, 16 experienced workers and your veteran worker set themselves to building Righteous PT boats at the portion of your ship yard not under construction. 53 Righteous PT boats slide off the ramp on this production run. There may have been a few mistakes made by workers, but it should not affect more than 2 of them.

Badgers: 54 novice workers, 30 workers, 8 experienced workers,
80 novice workers are assigned to the task of expanding our shipyard, they manage to expand it by 700 tons to a max of 2300 tons. 48 badgers roll off the factory floor in this first production run.


At your disposal:
6 experienced engineers
29 engineers
14 novice engineers
1 experienced aviation engineer
1 veteran worker
36 experienced workers
114 workers
148 novice workers

A new brick office
A large flat field, suitable for use as a runway.
An old partially bombed out wharf with:
1 operational dockyard up to a displacement of 2300 tons (large enough for frigates)
3 warehouses converted to a small factory/machine shop.
Several cleared lots
Various damaged or destroyed structures that are of no use at this time.

Your nations military manufacturing:
1 factory producing Mosin Nagants with upgraded ring sights
2 factories recently retooled for the Badger Mk2
1 factory producing 40mm hopper fed guns for towable guns
1 factory producing 40mm improved feed guns (mostly supplying the Badger Mk2 factories)
1 factory producing 170kw gas engines (mostly supplying the Badger Mk2 factories)
1 factory producing 80mm low velocity guns.
1 factories producing Patriotism Mk1 water cooled machine guns
1 factories producing Patriotism Mk2 air cooled machine guns

recently completed:
1 factory producing biplanes
1 factory producing air cooled Patriotism Mk2 air cooled machine guns

Under construction:
1 factory producing 320mm coastal defense guns
Allocation of an 800 ton boat yard to the production of Righteous PT boats

Current disposition of forces:
Infantry:
~25000 veteran infantry
~10000 infantry (minimal combat experience)
~20000 novice infantry (no  combat experience)
Standard Issue Equipment
Armor: woolen winter long coat + open steel helmet
Primary Weapon: Mosin Nagant with improved ring sights
Secondary Weapon: bayonet

~3000 Patriotism mk1 water cooled machine guns
~2100 Patriotism mk2 air cooled machine guns

~300 special forces
Armor: woolen winter long coat + open steel helmet
Primary weapon: varies
Secondary weapon: varies
10 14mm sniper rifles
30 9mm pistols
30 shotguns
30 SVA-10
~2000 captured 6mm carbines


Armor & Artillery:
333 40mm towable cannons
160 Badger Tanks (diesel)
216 Badger Tanks (gas)
48 Hydra
163 80mm medium cannons
1 320mm coastal defense cannon


Air Force:
20 recon balloons
380 fighter biplanes

Naval:
2 Glorious Cruisers
3 Popular Devotion Destroyers/Support ships
53 Righteous PT boats


Spoiler: Designs of 1920 (click to show/hide)

Spoiler: Designs of 1921 (click to show/hide)

Spoiler: Designs of 1922 (click to show/hide)

1923 war with Morovia begins with results to our favor.

Spoiler: Designs of 1923 (click to show/hide)

1924 war with Morovia enters a stalemate as Morovian air superiority prevents advancement.

Spoiler: Designs of 1924 (click to show/hide)

1925 the siege of our forces ends as our aircraft push the enemy back and allow our tanks to capture their nearest airfield.

Spoiler: Designs of 1925 (click to show/hide)

1926: the Morovians build up their forces.

Spoiler: Designs of 1926 (click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: May 04, 2013, 03:48:13 pm by Nadaka »
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tryrar

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Re: The revolutionary design bureau, under new management
« Reply #294 on: May 04, 2013, 02:02:53 pm »

Ok, looks like we need to definitely get the army to built an independent small-arms factory, so we don't have to manually order all the various new weapons our troops need. in fact:

16)Petition government to set up another factory tooled to produce small arms
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3_14159

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Re: The revolutionary design bureau, under new management
« Reply #295 on: May 04, 2013, 02:12:06 pm »

I'll add a single post detailing the differences between the MAC and the Badger IFV approach. I won't add any more, because I don't want it to devolve in a long discussion about the two.

The main difference is in priorities. For me, an APC should fulfil a single role: Transport soldiers to the front and give them firing support.
Of course, weighing has to be done. For the MAC, I prioritized the first role, transporting, higher than the second. In addition, firing support would only be given against infantry, at least in the standard vehicle. The Badger IFV, instead, provides firing support against both infantry and tanks, plus infantry transport, with the emphasis on the former.
From a one-on-one aspect, the Badger is clearly superior. It transports more infantry, and is better armed. However, that will be bought with higher weight and higher costs.
Weight is, of course, a problem due to the square/cube law, which will mean worse handling of heavier vehicles. (Bridges and so on will currently hold everything).
Cost, too. According to a source I found comparing the prices for the Sdkfz 251 and the Panzer II, the panzer would be more expensive by a factor between two and three, so let's say three to four for the modifications and more armor and so on. This'd mean a decrease in troop transport capacity per cost of 25 to 50 percent.

The different doctrines when using the MAC-A and Badger IFV:
MAC-A: Support the infantry against other infantry when no tank is present, rely on tanks, hand-held infantry weapons or AT guns against tanks.
Badger IFV: Directly support the infantry.

Therefore, as far as I see it, the advantages and disadvantages of each proposal:
Badger IFV:
+ Can fight against current tanks on its own
+ Higher personnel capacity per vehicle
+ armored against current tanks.
- Higher Costs per vehicle
- Less transport space per cost
- heavier

MAC-A
+ Cheaper and shares a common platform with possible other vehicles
+ More transport space per cost
+ armored against small arms fire
- Needs to work together with tanks

I hope I haven't forgotten any other points in that comparison. (And sorry for missing 't's, my key seems to be stuck)
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Brood

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Re: The revolutionary design bureau, under new management
« Reply #296 on: May 04, 2013, 02:44:34 pm »

The main problem I have with your design is armor.
Even a medium with AP round will chew the armor to pieces.

But I'll post my new ideas when I'm not on a phone in 40 mins or so.
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Nadaka

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Re: The revolutionary design bureau, under new management
« Reply #297 on: May 04, 2013, 03:13:28 pm »

...

finished compiling the tech list, the only other edit I made is to split the governments 2 Patriot factories in 2, 1 for the water cooled, 1 for the air cooled.

Also looks like I missed the hydra somehow.

On the topic of voting against? Everything already requires at least 3 people to support it, the original proposer, and 2 votes. We have only had 2 or 3 things come through with 5 people supporting it. And 4 is rare enough that it hasn't happened every turn. Allowing a vote against means that one person can stop more than half of all proposals. If you don't like something, you can offer a counter proposal. If more people prefer it over the original? You get your way.

« Last Edit: May 04, 2013, 04:35:21 pm by Nadaka »
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tryrar

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Re: The revolutionary design bureau, under new management
« Reply #298 on: May 04, 2013, 04:48:26 pm »

Guys, by my count it appears we haven't really agreed on any proposal due to not having the required votes for ANYTHING(except perhaps the Alexi, and that's only assuming that by adding an addendum to the proposal to finish it Doom supports the Alexi being built)

Edit: Scratch that, it appears the Alexi definitely has enough support, as well as for improving engines

Edit Edit: And since I'm switching my vote from 13 to 10.2, the 14mm machine gun now has enough votes to pass.

Also:I'm dropping my vote for 2. We can finish the heavy tank later, we need ships more
« Last Edit: May 04, 2013, 04:57:33 pm by tryrar »
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This fort really does sit on the event horizon of madness and catastrophe
No. I suppose there are similarities, but I'm fairly certain angry birds doesn't let me charge into a battalion of knights with a car made of circular saws.

Brood

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Re: The revolutionary design bureau, under new management
« Reply #299 on: May 04, 2013, 05:08:48 pm »

Revised 15,16. After some talk me and Mesor made up new designs, using our own and a few other peoples shamelessly stolen ( credit is given ) ideas.

15, Extend the frame of the badger enough to allow it to hold 12-16 soldiers in the rear hold, remove all primary weapon systems to add space, bolt 4 Patriotism Mk 3 onto the roof of the APC and add hatches to the roof of the APC behind those 4 guns, the guns are to be above the 2 seats closest to the driving compartment and 2 closest to the rear doors above the seats to allow passengers to stand on seats with the hatch open to operate the guns, the guns are to have armor forming a 3 sides box around the hatch while the hatch opens to cover the back to shield gunners.
Use the advanced design badger with 2 engines and heavier armor.
Credit to Moeggi for adding heavy infantry weapons in place of the main guns to save space.

(( No primary weapon means it needs minamul extension and is also significantly cheaper, to produce, it lacks the firepower I wanted but it's simple enough to add better weapons to replace the machineguns later and until then 4 of them provides a 360 degree field of fire from 4 weapons providing a lot of fire support while mobile or stationary and it keeps the heavy armor to enable it to operate in areas with enemy armor. ))

16, SPIA ( Self proppeled indirect artillery. ) Design a halftrack with front wheels and rear tracks, add an armored roof that can be withdrawn to the sides of the rear compartment to provide cover while mobile and additional armor when in use.
Attach an indirect firing artillery piece that can be adjusted to a high enough angle to use against aircraft also make it capable of firing a 160 mm HE shell and a 160mm varient of the 40mm AA time fused shell.
Credit to Mesor for the artillery and Elfeater for the Halftrack idea.

(( We have the shell size already so no new size to create, we have no mobile artillery everything needs to be dragged into position which takes time for transport and more to set up, this can move at speeds near that of the badger on it's own and has armor as well, enabling us to move large numbers of artillery into position, use them then move out again in a far far shorter length of time then anything else we've got, it also does enough damage to knock out a tank and though it's not built for it, it can at a stretch provide atleast some AA fire. In some situations it may be useful I suppose for AA. ))





+1 to these.
5. Have our aerospace engineer, along with a novice or two, experiment with single-wing style airframes. (Yes, monoplanes.)

1.1. Ensure that the Alexi has four torpedo tubes, to ensure maximum anti-ship firepower.

Let the engineers give the SMG another try, but use the 9mm short cartridge from our earlier pistol, and reduce magazine size to 30-40 round drum/stick mags.

6. Apply improvements to existing products, and make use of trophy carbines for the army when possible/needed.

7. Further improve engine. (Happens before 6 if approved.)

8. Apply spare workers to churning out SVA-10s and the like, but airforce and navy take precedence.

9. Produce more planes.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2013, 05:48:29 pm by Brood »
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