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[a1s]

Bunkers are expensive as hell, not gonna work for a nation as poor as we are

Tell that to the real life Soviets, Italians, Greeks, Spanish etc etc etc.

Also i said the development of a new type of cheap but strong quick drying cement that can be reinforced with steel bars. Makes building them cheaper and quicker.

Yes, Russians, Italians, Greeks, Germans, French and so on wasted a lot of resources on something that never helped enough.

It did help the Finns, though  it's unclear (to me) how much of it's success is just the Soviet heavily purged war machine's blunders.

[kahn1234]

Kahn, you do realize the wieght of a 40mm shell is at least 2 pounds right? belt fed would be highly impractical, and I'm not sure box magazines would work either..

What do you think the guns on modern jets are? 40mm belt fed gatling guns.

The mechanism isnt all to complex, just a larger sturdier version of an MG.

it shouldnt be too hard.

Bunkers are expensive as hell, not gonna work for a nation as poor as we are

Tell that to the real life Soviets, Italians, Greeks, Spanish etc etc etc.

Also i said the development of a new type of cheap but strong quick drying cement that can be reinforced with steel bars. Makes building them cheaper and quicker.

Yes, Russians, Italians, Greeks, Germans, French and so on wasted a lot of resources on something that never helped enough.

Bunkers are very expensive and require quite a lot of time to build. Later it may be an option, but now it's unwise, especially if our opponent has mobile forces

Oh yes, because the Maginot line never forced the Germans to go through the lowland nations....

oh wait.

The Maginot line was extremely effective. the only weakness in it was that it didnt go all the way up to the coast.

Static defences aren't useless if used correctly.

[kahn1234]

<snip>

[a1s]

Can we put something in the fluff about use being time/dimension travellers? It's seriously bugging me that we are discussing stuff that happened 20 years later in a different world (including technically and doctrinally advanced weapon designs)

[Ukrainian Ranger]

Modern jets use 20-23mm cannons

Those are oversized machineguns and it's just a tradition that everything 20mm+ is called an automatic cannon

a1s, either that, or we'll need to roleplay engineers

________
As for Maginot line, It's a very complex topic, it wasn't built to the coast  because 1)  more marshy land made bunkers much building here much more expensive even for the country with huge military budget 2) It was expected that Belgians would build their own line (guess what? They never had enough funds for that)   3) French never wanted to let Germans move artillery and bombard their industrial zones

But, most importantly: Germans did break through the Maginot line
That's exactly what allowed them to encircle BEN forces and win French Campaign

[kahn1234]

Modern jets use 20-23mm cannons

Those are oversized machineguns and it's just a tradition that everything 20mm+ is called an automatic cannon

a1s, either that, or we'll need to roleplay engineers

________
As for Maginot line, It's a very complex topic, it wasn't built to the coast  because 1)  more marshy land made bunkers much building here much more expensive even for the country with huge military budget 2) It was expected that Belgians would build their own line (guess what? They never had enough funds for that)   3) French never wanted to let Germans move artillery and bombard their industrial zones

But, most importantly: Germans did break through the Maginot line
That's exactly what allowed them to encircle BEN forces and win French Campaign

What history books have you been reading?

The Germans got into France by luring the BEF and several French divisions away by feigning retreat, which allowed the Germans to sneak in the rest of their army and rush forward. this all happened on the French-Belgian Border. the Maginot line was never broken through. the Germans had to surround the whole line and effectively siege and starve them out, or at least fight them until the french ran out of ammo.

Also, it depends which jets you look at. The A10 Thunderbolt uses 30mm rounds, as do many other jets built around ground attack/CAS roles. the only jets that have 20-23mm cannons are air superiority and multi-role planes, unless otherwise refitted for a different role.

And there isnt much difference between a 30mm round and a 40mm round. It is possible and not hard.

But anyway, a twin barreled 10 round magazine fed version would actually be better. would only take 1 man to hand loading for each barrel. It would have to reload more often though.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

What history books have you been reading?

Numerous, I was quite interested in WW2 when I was a teen. But for simple stuff like that Wikepedia is enough:

During the advance to the English Channel, the Germans overran France's border defence with Belgium and several Maginot Forts in the Maubeuge area, whilst the Luftwaffe simply flew over it. On 19 May, the German 16th Army successfully captured petit ouvrage La Ferte (southeast of Sedan) after conducting a deliberate assault by combat engineers backed up by heavy artillery. The entire French crew of 107 soldiers was killed during the action. On 14 June 1940, the day Paris fell, the German 1st Army went over to the offensive in "Operation Tiger" and attacked the Maginot Line between St. Avold and Saarbrücken The Germans then broke through the fortification line as defending French forces retreated southward.

If no breakthrough at Sedan, Germans would never encircle BEF forces. Germans did what French never expected, that's why they won

And there isnt much difference between a 30mm round and a 40mm round.

Sure, not much, 40mm rounds and gun are 2.3 times heavier than 30mm by default

[kahn1234]

What history books have you been reading?

Numerous, I was quite interested in WW2 when I was a teen. But for simple stuff like that Wikepedia is enough:

During the advance to the English Channel, the Germans overran France's border defence with Belgium and several Maginot Forts in the Maubeuge area, whilst the Luftwaffe simply flew over it. On 19 May, the German 16th Army successfully captured petit ouvrage La Ferte (southeast of Sedan) after conducting a deliberate assault by combat engineers backed up by heavy artillery. The entire French crew of 107 soldiers was killed during the action. On 14 June 1940, the day Paris fell, the German 1st Army went over to the offensive in "Operation Tiger" and attacked the Maginot Line between St. Avold and Saarbrücken The Germans then broke through the fortification line as defending French forces retreated southward.

If no breakthrough at Sedan, Germans would never encircle BEN forces. Germans did what French never expected, that's why they won

And there isnt much difference between a 30mm round and a 40mm round.

Sure, not much, 40mm rounds and gun are 2.3 times heavier than 30mm by default

Those are not part of the main section of the Maginot line (the Franco-German border area). Both Sedan and the Maubeuge area are on the franco-belgian border, and were nowhere near as heavily defended as the main section of the line (along the Franco-German border).

They were also already being surrounded by the Germans who were flooding through the hole left by the luring of British and French troops away using feints. Practically unsupported, Sedan and the Maubeuge couldn't hold. they were overran by sheer numbers and military weight pouring through the hole in the defensive line.

My main point, however, still stands. The Germans never managed to break through the main line. A few small forts at the very northern part of the line dont count as 'breaking through'.

And there isnt much difference between a 30mm round and a 40mm round.

Sure, not much, 40mm rounds and gun are 2.3 times heavier than 30mm by default

That would be a big factor, if we were talking about fitting a belt fed 40mm gun to an aircraft. We aren't, so its irrelevant.

[a1s]

Also, it depends which jets you look at. The A10 Thunderbolt uses 30mm rounds, as do many other jets built around ground attack/CAS roles. the only jets that have 20-23mm cannons are air superiority and multi-role planes, unless otherwise refitted for a different role.

Most ground attack aircraft seem to use 25mm cannons (except A-10 and a slew of Soviet designs my cursory search didn't find any that used 30mm)

And there isnt much difference between a 30mm round and a 40mm round. It is possible and not hard.

As has been mentioned, 40mm rounds are on average 2.3 times heavier.

[kahn1234]

Also, it depends which jets you look at. The A10 Thunderbolt uses 30mm rounds, as do many other jets built around ground attack/CAS roles. the only jets that have 20-23mm cannons are air superiority and multi-role planes, unless otherwise refitted for a different role.

Most ground attack aircraft seem to use 25mm cannons (except A-10 and a slew of Soviet designs my cursory search didn't find any that used 30mm)

It can be hard to differentiate between purpose built CAS/Ground attack planes such as the A10 and multirole fighters outfitted for CAS roles.

Purpose build ones usually have 30mm or higher. They are also far rarer.

Multiroles usually have 20-25mm cannons. They are also far more common due to their multirole nature.

And there isnt much difference between a 30mm round and a 40mm round. It is possible and not hard.

As has been mentioned, 40mm rounds are on average 2.3 times heavier.

See my other comment above.

[a1s]

See my other comment above.

What are we designing? A gun boat? Why are we talking about planes then?

[kahn1234]

See my other comment above.

What are we designing? A gun boat? Why are we talking about planes then?

I wanted to design a twin barreled static ground defence piece for bunkers to use alongside up to 5 MG's and maybe a 94mm AT/AA gun. Stop the enemy at the border type thing.

I initially said that maybe have it belt fed.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

kahn1234, do you realize that when you increase size of something, you need much stronger materials, better cooling and so on? You can't just take a weapon, increase all it's parts and hope that it will work
If you make a a ten meter long copy of AK-47 it will never fire. Same with machine-guns that you want to turn into 40mm guns

automatic AA guns of that caliber with belts existed, but belt was something like 10-12 rounds and it  used much shorter rounds (like 40×158mm)

200 rounds belt for our large 40x300mm is a freaking 200kg+ and something like 10 meters long.

As for anti-tank role, automatic fire is a great disadvantage, because automatic weapons need to look for  compromises.... muzzle velocity, accuracy, stealth will suffer.

[kahn1234]

kahn1234, do you realize that when you increase size of something, you need much stronger materials, better cooling and so on? You can't just take a weapon, increase all it's parts and hope that it will work
If you make a a ten meter long copy of AK-47 it will never fire. Same with machine-guns that you want to turn into 40mm guns

automatic AA guns of that caliber with belts existed, but belt was something like 10-12 rounds and it  used much shorter rounds (like 40×158mm)

200 rounds belt for our large 40x300mm is a freaking 200kg+ and something like 10 meters long.

As for anti-tank role, automatic fire is a great disadvantage, because automatic weapons need to look for  compromises.... muzzle velocity, accuracy, stealth will suffer.

....which is why later i said a 10 round, maybe 20 round, magazine similar to the type used by 40mm AA guns in WW2 (such as the famous and deadly Bofors, among a whole range of other high effective weapons).

[Scelly9]

PTW