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[Brood]

The suppressor works fine for any form of rifle just requiring a different size and some minor changes so is perfectly fine and can be built now and is simpler then the SMG which is why I'm doing it first. The SMG will come with the next turn if these 2 go well.

The vest is perfectly possible, it won't be as effective as present day ones due to inferior materials by any means and may be a bit heavier but even one thats only partially effective is much better then the present 0 protection they have from enemy fire. Imagine how many less people would have died in ww2 if they'd had vests and then imagine our advantage if we have them and our enemy doesn't.

What difference does it make if it's flash grenades or frags? It still fixes the flaw and since it's for special forces I want something thats quiet so it can be used without everybody within a mile hearing it and in it's most basic form it's just a set of chemicals, it'll need a bit of trial and error but it's perfectly possible to do and once it's done the frag can be fixed easily.

The same tech will help all of the infantry as a whole it'll just go to the special forces first like new tech does the world over, the shotgun works short term for urban battles and the Patritism is already being dished out from factories anyway.
But I see your point about the SMG so I'll look at SMG next turn and get it fixed up and a semi auto assault rifle is in the works now as well.

I think as we're getting more aggressive now special forces are going to become important to our tactics so I want them well equipped to do the job and survive, better kit and the gliders provides us with a good stealth assault option.

[tryrar]

Brood, sounds like you're really protesting to much

Seriously though, suppressors and rifles tend to not mix due to the fact that supersonic rounds create a sonic boom in addition to the sound of the muzzle blast. A suppressor cannot deal with the sonic boom, and don't let Hollywood fool you into thinking suppressors completely eliminate muzzle noise or the muzzle flash. SMGs and pistols, on the other hand, tend to fire subsonic rounds, and CAN benefit from a suppressor for keeping the noise down when needed(though you'd be better off having the commando use CQC for silent takedowns)

As well, flash grenades are more commonly known by the moniker Flash-bangs due to the fact they use a sudden flash of light and noise to disorient their targets for the few seconds you need. So yes, everyone within a mile will still hear it. (Dude, what causes the flash is an EXPLOSION, no way that's gonna be silent!)

Also, as pointed out we simply don't have the materials to make a good vest without it weighing 20 pounds(We have something thats like a modern breastplate. It's only really effective against shrapnel and still weighs a good bit.). You try lugging 20 extra pounds into a combat situation and see how combat effective you are. That's why the vests they had in WW2were only really flak jackets for shrapnel protection

[10ebbor10]

As well, flash grenades are more commonly known by the moniker Flash-bangs due to the fact they use a sudden flash of light and noise to disorient their targets for the few seconds you need. So yes, everyone within a mile will still hear it. (Dude, what causes the flash is an EXPLOSION, no way that's gonna be silent!)

A magnesium flash granate could do the job. It'll light up the surroundings pretty well though. Might even blind some people.
[/quote]

However, I think that before we design special ops gear, we need to determine their purpose. My suggestions were based on them being primarly used against large fortifications. Hence I proposed the glider (Unusual way of attack against which the fort has no defense(usually)) and the shaped explosives/ previously flamethrower( Both very good at disabling fortifications).

[Brood]

The Suppressors work well even if it can only be done on some weapons and yes I know they only limit and don't remove the sound entirely but it's still better then nothing when you need as much stealth as you can get and it doesn't need many engineers.

As for the armor, thats down to the rolls and the GM, if we roll well then we can get something good still it's worth sticking with it for the chance that it works out, making a good one is possible to do with current equipment and it doesn't require many engineers to work on it.

Flash grenades are possible, they are less effective then flashbangs but they still work to a point and give the soldiers using them a 2-3 second advantage which is plenty when storming a room and again is labor cheap, plus being used inside you'd have to be looking at the exact room it's used in at the right time to notice it.

We have plenty of people working on navy, aircraft, armor so I'm gonna focus my effort on infantry superiority for a few turns.

[RAM]

Armour for special forces is very dubious, as it conflicts with speed, which is arguable their most important attribute. Although, to be fair, being able to erect a strong defence would have its uses. Possibly a shield, for directional protection to cover advances. A directional defence could better take advantage of angled armour and could potentially be formed into a battering-ram style object with a long handle to spread the weight over several soldiers. It would be useful for advancing down corridors or advancing on light bunkers, and probably to provide a covered position in environments with no cover. On the other side of things, perhaps something like a three-piece, hand-assembleable armoured machine gun position could potentially allow a small force to suppress a larger force. A strong position like that would be useful for holding positions, such as suppressing a barracks while your comrades are searching offices, or holding corridors in a bunker to isolate its forces. As this thing would be a pain to retrieve while under fire, it might be an idea to include a self-destruction mechanism to destroy its mechanical components, although that is probably unnecessary and of extremely limited effect. If worn armour was used it would probably be restricted to a very small number of soldiers who would not have to carry anything else, or maybe tor observers on tanks and such, perhaps with a single-point attachment to have the tank-chassis hold some of the weight.

On the topic of flash-bangs, perhaps we could build an artillery shell designed to be as loud as possible. perhaps by making it very brittle and structured with it explosives positioned to propagate an explosion as close to the speed of sound as possible.

[Brood]

Well I wanna see the result anyway, a good roll could result in a good vest 20 years ahead of time which would be fantastic for us so it's worth a shot.
As for the shell, that'd be a great idea since it's something thats effective on infantry even if they are outside the immediate range.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

+1 vote to everything above, you guys haven't proposed anything I don't object to(any I mean everyone above, I just don't feel like putting in a big quote pyramid of suggestions I agree to)

Stuff like that makes me think that limiting number of votes is a good idea, because GM will still get too many designs per turn

[Nadaka]

Hope yall don't get too upset.

*******************************
The Morovian submarin threat continues to escalate. Over the course of the year 152 submarine attacks are recorded, with a record of 20 attacks in the final month of the year.

This has resulted in the loss of over 50 non military craft, 10 Righteous PT boats and 1 Popular Devotion support ship before the end of the year.

These subs have an estimated displacement of 300 tons. and are armed with a single 60mm deck gun and 2 torpedo's. They are capable of aproximately 30km/h on the surface and at least 20 submerged.

We estimate that in order to attack with this intensity that they must have at least 30 submarines.

Halfway through the year the enemy sinks transport convoy that was being used to ferry troops and supplies, she goes down with all hands, 2000 men are lost.

towards the end of the year, the Morovians make a bold move. A pack of 4 enemy subs  had been harrassing a shipping convoy near our primary port, sinking one ship and damaging 2 others, The alexi and a Glorious were nearby and moved to intercept while reenforcements by air and PT boat are called in. 6 additional subs surface and rapidly fire off a salvo of torpedo's, 6 for each ship. Both ships return fire  as soon as their guns can be brought to bear.

The 40mm cannons fire a first salvo. 2 of Alexi's turrets and 4 of the Glorious Cruisers turrets rain down 800 40mm low velocity shells over the next 15 seconds. At long range, this is not entirely effective. 3 hits are scored, damaging lightly damaging 2 subs. The 4 previously surfaced subs remain out of range of the 40mm guns.

The 60mm cannons of the 6 subs open fire. The Glorious cruiser harmlessly bounces 2 shells off her, 2 more strike higher on the ship for slight damage. The Alexi is hit once above the primary armor and also suffers slight damage.

Both ships begin turning towards the incoming torpedo's.

The 80mm cannons are brought to bear. 2 turrets from the Alexi and 5 turrets from the Glorious open fire. The Alexi lands a hit and destroys one sub. The Glorious lands one hit and cripples one sub.

All 4 of the Glorious gun turrets are brought to bear. None score hits.

The 4 remaining subs do something you did not know they could. They fire a second salvo of 8 torpedo's.

The 40mm cannons mount another barrage. Several hits are scored and another sub sinks beneath the waves before the crew intended. The remaining 3 subs, as well as the 4 that had acted as a distraction submerge and retreat.

All available cannons and machine guns attempt to bring down the incoming waves of torpedo's 2 are destroyed.

The first wave of 11 torpedo's move in as the crews brace for impact. 3 torpedo's harmlessly miss the Glorious, 4 harmlessly miss the Alexi. 3 torpedo's do not miss the Glorious, 1 torpedo does not miss the Alexi.


By now the alexi is driving almost directly towards the incoming torpedo's while the Glorious still flounders.

Of the second wave of 7 torpedo's, 2 more hit the Glorious and 1 more hits the Alexi.

Despite its heavier armor the Glorious is much worse for wear with 5 moderate points of damage along the same side of her hull, she is listing steeply by the time she makes it back to port and is completely unfit for combat. The Alexi is still technically capable of putting up a fight despite a major point of damage on one side and missing 4 meters from her nose. Even so, her pumps are running full tilt to keep her afloat.

Within hours every PT boat and aircraft in this half of the country are patrolling the sea, even venturing out into deeper water on the search for these 8 remaining subs.

In the end they are spotted by a mixed wing of feathers and Wolverines. Overconfident they get to close and the subs open fire with a 12 mm HMG from their conning towers, destroying 3 aircraft. However, in the end they where overwealmed and destroyed.

There appears to be a second slightly larger model now in operation that also carries a 12 mm machine gun for defence against aircraft and PT boats and can fire a second salvo of torpedo's.

*******************************

At your disposal:
1 experienced electronic engineer
1 electronic engineers
2 accoustic engineers
1 experienced aviation engineer (1d10*)
1 experienced engine engineer (1d10*)
3 engine engineers (1d8*)

19 experienced engineers (1d10)
20 engineers (1d8)
20 novice engineers (1d6)
9 green engineers (1d4)

1 veteran+ worker
13 veteran worker
68 experienced workers
122 workers
95 novice workers


An aging brick office
A large flat field, suitable for use as a runway.
An old partially bombed out wharf with:
1 operational dockyard up to a displacement of 2300 tons (large enough for frigates)
3 warehouses converted to a small factory/machine shop.
1 College of Engineering (produces 4 engineer specialists/year)

Your nations military manufacturing:
1 factory producing Mosin Nagants with upgraded ring sights (lots/year)
1 factory producing 170kw gas engines (mostly supplying the Wolverine factory)
1 factory producing 80mm low velocity guns (~60/year)
1 factories producing Patriotism Mk1 water cooled machine guns (~400/year)
1 factory producing Wolvarine biplanes (~100/year)
1 factory producing air cooled Patriotism Mk2 air cooled machine guns (~300/year)
1 factory producing 320mm coastal defense guns (12/year)
800 ton boat yard to the production of Popular Devotion support ships(34/year)
800 ton boat yard producing Righteous PT boats (3/year)
1200 ton boat yard to the production of Alexi class frigates. (1/year)
1 small factory producing misc small arms (500 SVA-10 + 500 other / year)
1 factory producing Hydra's(100/year)
Expansion of Alexi boat yard to 1400 tons displacement.

Recently completed:
2 factory producing HVG-40 for refits (~300/year)

Recently suspended pending supply of 40mm guns:
1 factories producing Badger Mk2 (~100/year)


Infantry:
~25000 veteran infantry
~10000 infantry (minimal combat experience)
~18000 novice infantry (no  combat experience)
Standard Issue Equipment
Armor: woolen winter long coat + open steel helmet
Primary Weapon: Mosin Nagant with improved ring sights
Secondary Weapon: bayonet

~4200 Patriotism mk1 water cooled machine guns
~3500 Patriotism mk2 air cooled machine guns

~300 special forces
Armor: woolen winter long coat + open steel helmet
Primary weapon: varies
Secondary weapon: varies
110 14mm sniper rifles
230 9mm pistols
230 shotguns
530 SVA-10
~2000 captured 6mm carbines


Armor & Artillery:
733 40mm towable cannons
160 Badger Tanks (diesel)
532 Badger Mk2 Tanks (gas)
343 80mm medium cannons
48 Hydra AA badger variant
25 320mm coastal defense cannon
293 Armored Cars

Air Force:
20 recon balloons
729 Feather biplanes
272 Wolvarine biplanes

Naval:
1 Glorious Cruisers
4 Popular Devotion Support ships
1 Alexi class frigate
1 heavilly damaged Alexi class frigate
1 Alexi 1337 frigate
73 Righteous PT boats

*******************************

The govornment begins a massive works project to construct a dry dock large enoough to fit the Glorious, and eventually larger ships as their highest priority.

You recieve a demand from the admiralty. Your shipyard will not be idle. You must contribute a hundred workers to the task, the rest will be filled with conscripts.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

C.R.A.P.

I think everyone agrees that this should be navy oriented turn? I suggest to restart the voting

Another option - new tanks and try to persuade our generals to go to Moravia through our neighbor with the prior plan

[Ukrainian Ranger]

Ok, my suggestion

A: contribute workers to the demand, than start producing Battlebusses, K-1s, Furry monoplanes, 40mm mortars, our new rockets for artillery support
B: Do whatever we can to make our general do this:
"Do "Pearl Harbour" to the unnamed country (I propose Capia for it's name) Use a combination of surprise attack from the air using our respectable fleet of aircrafats and, and from sea by Righteous boats to strike ships of the unnamed country in the port.
Also send a few biplanes inland to scout enemy positions ahead of the attack.
Than use our K1-s, upgraded badgers, battlebusses, veteran infantry and special forces and armored car forces behind bringing in infantry along with air support to rapidy advance to the capital of the capitalist pigs to arrest government evil oppressors while non upgraded badgers, armored cars, trailer cannons and other infantry are used to destroy any other pockets of resistance.
Special forces units also advance to the Morovian border to provide early warning of enemy reinforcements from hidden positions.

After that  Navy goes on defensive under protection of coastal guns, 50% of airforce aids navy, 50% aids armed forces"

Removed attack by capital ships and special forces as we have to few capital ships to risk them now, while torpedo boats are somewhat expendable and excellent against docked target and hard to notice\hit by whatever coastal defense

C. Take accurate machineguns, fuel efficient diesel, depth finding and range for sonars

1.Popular devotion rework:
Remove 80mm gun, remove torpedoes,  replace 4 40mm guns with 2 twin 40mm high velocity ones, reduce number of engines to 2 new diesels accepting  loss of speed. Add 6 single 14mm machineguns, add sonar, add minelaying equipment (try to make it as light as possible), add anti sub mortars. Try to optimize weight of auxiliary  equipment of ship.   Request 2 naval engineers for this
Urge government to start building those as fast as possible instead of older popular devotions

We need something against those subs! While they'll be somewhat underpowerd in artillery duels with subs, I hope that alexis\older population devotions will work together with them fixing this . As well as for numerical advantage

2. Finish ship recovery equipment project and try to get a sub.
Historically many ships sunk n shallow areas were recovered and served again (or, at least,  used for metal) + reverse engineering enemy subs would be nice. Also, if we sucesfull with the port attack, later, when we'll get there, we may recover some pf their ships for our own use.

_____________________________
Some thing I suggest to not do:

: Switching just everything to new diesel . That will disrupt our production lines and take designing efforts. Especially we can't allow to do that for righteous torpedo boats, our main coast defense stuff
Also I am against retrofitting anything existing with new diesels, new diesels should go to new vehicles, old can do just fine, maybe later, in safer times we can retrofit them all

: Developing better tanks or fighters: Sorry, but we have good enough right now, should cover holes in our army. There are many: lack of medium howitzers (100-120mm), lack of heavy howitzers (150-180mm), lack of dedicated 80mm AA guns, Lack of radars,  lack of grenades, lack of naval recon (airships should fill that role nicely, early helicopters and long range floatplanes are other options) , lack of heavy strategic bombers, lack of submarines , lack of large ships after all. Tanks and fighters can wait! Our engineers have more important things to do

[kahn1234]

Does anyone have a list of possible equipment we can put on our ships?

also, what armaments do our current ships have?

[Nadaka]

Does anyone have a list of possible equipment we can put on our ships?

also, what armaments do our current ships have?

All current ship designs should be in the games first post. See the spoilers for design by year.


It probably isn't updated to show that you can swap out mines for depth charges.

[RAM]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Code: [Select]

[b]Diesel engine: low mantainance, fuel efficient[/b]
[b]Submarine detector(2 of): depth finding, half weight, scanning, long range[/b]
[b]14mm machine gun: high RoF, extremely accurate, recoil reduced[/b]
[b]1: fight the defensive fight for now?[/b]
[b]2: violate the territorial waters of Unnamed so our pt boats can reach Morovia?[/b]
[b]3: attempt a risky deep water crossing with our PT boats.[/b]
[b]4: march overland through Unnamed?[/b]
[b]5: strike at Morovian naval assets with our limited deep water navy.[/b]
[b]We get 4 engineers, make up specialities for them:[/b]


Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Code: [Select]

kah,try-1) Develop [for the K-1] high velocity 80mm cannon, plus compatible High Explosive and Armour piercing shells.
kah,try-2) Replace [on the K-1] 2x 170kw engines with 2x400kw engines. The infrastructure for two engines is already there. Shouldn't be too much of a problem installing them, especially if they are compact.
try,kah,RAM, PI-3,10ebbor10)Begin refitting the new diesel into anything that'll fit it(excluding aircraft of course). This includes, but is not limited to; the PT boats, cars, trucks, the Armored Car, and the Badger. I'm aiming to streamline supply lines by having everything ground-based run on diesel.
try,kah-4)Continue work on the new Worker destroyer class, this time as a full scale effort, with the following modification: if the high-velocity 80mm [from proposal 1] is completed design and mount two double 80mm turrets instead of the double and single 160mm. As an addendum, any ship currently armed with the low-velocity 80mm is to have the high-velocity 80mm refitted to it
RAM,10ebbor10,try-5): Finish the airship-bomber-subhunter thing that we got a good start on.
RAM,try-6): Design a simple, low-cost automatic rifle to replace the Mosin Nagant. Have it fire sixteen of the standard 8mm rounds between reloads.
10ebbor10,try-7): Ligth weight gliders
10ebbor10,try,RAM-8): Directional explosives
Ukr,try-9.Popular devotion rework: Remove 80mm gun, remove torpedos, replace 4 40mm guns with 2 new high velocity ones, reduce number of engines to 2 new diesels accepting  loss of speed. Add 4 single 14mm machineguns, add sonar, add minelaying equipment (try to make it as light as possible), add anti sub mortars.
Ukr,try-10. Finish ship recovery equipment project and try to get a sub.
Bro,mes,try-11, Begin designing a suppressor for assault rifles, submachineguns, sniper rifles and pistols.
Bro,mes,try,RAM-12, Begin designing flash grenades and stun grenades.
mes,Bro,try-13, Design bulletproof vests and helmets in night camo colors. Priority to good protection without restricting movement.
mes,Bro,try-14, Design an infantry portable anti armor weapon, light weight with a reasonably high yield explosive tipped rocket.


Production:
try,RAM-15)I propose we cease production of mosin nagants and retool that factory for the better SVA-10, and retool the smaller small-arms factory for the remaining small-arms designs we have. Also exand that factory while we're at it.
Ukr,try-15.1. Suggest to retool mosin-nagan factory to SVA-10
try,RAM-16)Get the drydock up to being able to handle Glorious cruisers so they can be refit easily
try,RAM-17)Start producing the new monoplane fighters
try,RAM-17.1)Name them the YR-1 Zephyr
try-18)Double the size of the Alexi shipyard so as to produce at least 2 a year
try,RAM-19)Get a small factory going to produce small numbers of K-1s
try-20)Get 2 more factories going to produce HVG-40s for refit and production purposes[/b]
Ukr,try-21. Put all our production into new fighters\K-1s, heavy APCs. Shipyards and the like can wait
Bro,mes,try-21.1, Put all our production into new mono fighters, half carrying bombs and half with only guns\K-1s, heavy APCs. Shipyards and the like can wait.
Bro,mes,try-22, Suggest special forces be expanded to 1000 men minamum recruiting from veterans.
Ukr,try,RAM-23.  Produce 40mm mortars for infantry


Not really sure what to call these...

Spoiler: warplan (click to show/hide)

Urk=7) (would number it 1, because it is the only one related to the situation)
Do "Pearl Harbour" to the unnamed country (I propose Capia for it's name)
Use a combination of surprise attack from the air using our respectable fleet of biplanes, and from sea by Righteous

boats to strike ships of the unnamed country in the port. Also use some  Righteous boats to land special forces at the

naval base to further the damage. and destroy coastal batteries if some exist, then send third wave consisting of our

large ships to completely devastate enemy naval base

Than use our tanks, atrmored cars and 40mm trailers (and air support)  to rapidy advanche to the capital of the capitalist pigs to arrest government evil opressors
-------------------------------------
Ukr=Warplan

Do "Pearl Harbour" to the unnamed country (I propose Capia for it's name) Use a combination of surprise attack from the air using our respectable fleet of biplanes, and from sea by Righteous boats to strike ships of the unnamed country in the port. Also use some  Righteous boats to land special forces at the naval base to further the damage. and destroy coastal batteries if some exist, then send third wave consisting of our large ships to completely devastate enemy naval base Than use our tanks, atrmored cars and 40mm trailers (and air support)  to rapidy advanche to the capital of the capitalist pigs to arrest government evil oppressors

Post surprise attack, depending on results our navy and airforce should:
a) If the attack is successful, whole Navy patrol Capia's territorial waters in attempt to disrupt shipping and possible Moravian aid, 25% of airforce aids navy, 75% aids army advance
b) if attacks fails to destroy majority of Capia's navy, Navy goes on defensive under protection of coastal guns, 75% of airforce aids navy, 25% aids armed forces
--------------------------
Bro=7.1
Do "Pearl Harbour" to the unnamed country (I propose Capia for it's name) Use a combination of surprise attack from the air using our respectable fleet of biplanes, and from sea by Righteous boats to strike ships of the unnamed country in the port. Also use some  Righteous boats to land special forces at the naval base and along the coast to further the damage. and destroy coastal batteries if some exist and advance inland to scout enemy positions, then send third wave consisting of our large ships to completely devastate enemy naval base with a second wave of bombings.
Also send a few biplanes inland to scout enemy positions ahead of the attack.
Than use our upgraded badgers in the lead and armored car forces behind bringing in infantry along with air support to rapidy advance to the capital of the capitalist pigs to arrest government evil oppressors while non upgraded badgers, armored cars and cannons are used to destroy any other pockets of resistance.
Special forces units also advance to the Morovian border to provide early warning of enemy reinforcements from hidden positions.

Post surprise attack, depending on results our navy and airforce should:
a) If the attack is successful, whole Navy patrol Capia's territorial waters in attempt to disrupt shipping and possible Moravian aid, 25% of airforce aids navy, 75% aids army advance
b) if attacks fails to destroy majority of Capia's navy, Navy goes on defensive under protection of coastal guns, 75% of airforce aids navy, 25% aids armed forces

I just took the most recent version of the votes, If I missed you(I am using 3 letter abbreviations for players) or have your votes wrong, then I apologise.

Because a proposal can have both production and design components, I am not using the alphabetic listing scheme as it seems to be in violation of the proposal format. Anyway, nobody seems to have labelled them correctly, so I am numbering them now.

Ukrainian Ranger is trying to restart from scratch after the combat update, I am not incorporating this philosophy into the list...

[andy_t_roo]

all tis talking of war/invading Unknowen. we are loosing the naval war and some people on the r&d team want to start another war.

has anyone tried the diplomatic approach? We should approach Unknowen and try to get a joint r&d project going, with the aim of making sonar with all of the listed options. (2 from us, 2 from them, 1 collaboration bonus. after seeing how much of a threat those subs are, I expect this to be an easy sell. both parties get something helpful, but not something either o us can use against the other right now, as neither of u have sub flets.

[kahn1234]

We need more ASW ships armed to the teeth with Anti-sub weapons.

and more PT boats to help.