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[Brood]

(( Hah yeah, what do you do when you have 10-15 idiots in your command? Stick them in one squad then offer them a ride on the lead tank in enemy territory. ))

[RAM]

It isn't that bad, infantry on the ground are also vulnerable, and tanks want to have infantry that can travel with them, and the infantry probably don't weigh enough for the tank to really care. The problem arises when the tanks stop to let the troops off rather than charging to avoid getting hit.

[Brood]

Infantry sitting on a tank are an easy as heck target and need 3-5 seconds to disembark and duck for cover.

Infantry marching can hit the grund in 1 second and begin to return fire.

5 seconds is a long time when your ambushes, to long.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

I vote for 15.1
While I don't want APCs yet, voting shows that we'll get one, and I prefer that good practical design to a bad tracked IFV and urge others who dislike Broods concept do the same

Brood, BTW, you can't change the proposal and name it with the same number, really. In that way votes for older proposal will count for newer and that's wrong

As for production proposals

I propose

20
Refit our cruisers, by removing mines and mining equipment and placing Hydra turrets in place, thus boosting their AA potential. Also replace it's 40mm  guns  with 40mm Cannon Mk2s. But do that only if that will not hurt production of Alexi! Most workforce should go to the prototype
And increase our dockyard yet again if that necessary for above


9.1  Ask generals to produce another factory, that will specialize on producing all the small arms we designed (as they see fit) and offer to look for mosin nagants export possibilities
Our workers are too valuable to mass produce small arms!

Also, I ask for more votes for 12, we need a flagship, even if that will be dated shit.

[tryrar]

I vote for 15.1
While I don't want APCs yet, voting shows that we'll get one, and I prefer that good practical design to a bad tracked IFV and urge others who dislike Broods concept do the same

Brood, BTW, you can't change the proposal and name it with the same number, really. In that way votes for older proposal will count for newer and that's wrong

As for production proposals

I propose

20
Refit our cruisers, by removing mines and mining equipment and placing Hydra turrets in place, thus boosting their AA potential. Also replace it's 40mm  guns  with 40mm Cannon Mk2s. But do that only if that will not hurt production of Alexi! Most workforce should go to the prototype
And increase our dockyard yet again if that necessary for above


9.1  Ask generals to produce another factory, that will specialize on producing all the small arms we designed (as they see fit) and offer to look for mosin nagants export possibilities
Our workers are too valuable to mass produce small arms!

Also, I ask for more votes for 12, we need a flagship, even if that will be dated shit.

Umm, UR I already proposed 9.1...though I cannot honestly remember the number right now!

[RAM]

It is a long time in a small ambush, but in open ground where tanks are at their fastest an ambush is less likely and will probably occur at ranges where small arms are less precise. Although I agree that it is a much less than ideal approach, if it happened I wouldn't be too worried...

I would rather keep the variety, having the mines in our fleet is handy.

I wouldn't bother with a large flagship, we can put our flag on anything, only get a large ship if we need something for bombardment or major fleet engagements.

There are bad subproposals and good subproposals. The good ones add votes to the main proposal and the bad ones cancel the other proposal if they are passes. This would be a bad subproposal, which is appropriate because they are both basically troop carriers. If we want both than a completely new proposal or a subproposal advocating both would be appropriate.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

You doubled 16 while it existed. (now we have 3 versions of 16, GM gonna love that)  Besides 9.1 cancels 9 that involves producing small arms ourself.

BTW, Tryrar, you didn't make your vote for 10.2 bold

I would rather keep the variety, having the mines in our fleet is handy.

Righteous can lay mines just fine. Also we may design a proper minelaying ships later. It's simply much more practical to use small ships for that task
Our cruisers have inadequate air defense, that need to be fixed sooner than later

I wouldn't bother with a large flagship, we can put our flag on anything, only get a large ship if we need something for bombardment or major fleet engagements.

And who said that we will not have fleet engagements? How it is bad to have battleship to assist our ground forces ( we are at pensisula, ships are straight better mobile artillery than any armoured vehicles)

[RAM]

Righteous has a very small mine compliment, enough to leave a nasty surprise somewhere, or to slow down pursuers, but would have a hard time mining an area without sending a whole mess of them to do so.

As for the battleship, I am not really opposed to having them, but I wouldn't put our flag on it...

[Nadaka]

Preparing an update, BTW Iron Man 3 was pretty good.

[Nadaka]

Revised 15,16. After some talk me and Mesor made up new designs, using our own and a few other peoples shamelessly stolen ( credit is given ) ideas.

15, Extend the frame of the badger enough to allow it to hold 12-16 soldiers in the rear hold, remove all primary weapon systems to add space, bolt 4 Patriotism Mk 3 onto the roof of the APC and add hatches to the roof of the APC behind those 4 guns, the guns are to be above the 2 seats closest to the driving compartment and 2 closest to the rear doors above the seats to allow passengers to stand on seats with the hatch open to operate the guns, the guns are to have armor forming a 3 sides box around the hatch while the hatch opens to cover the back to shield gunners.
Use the advanced design badger with 2 engines and heavier armor. Credit to Moeggi for adding heavy infantry weapons in place of the main guns to save space.

(( No primary weapon means it needs minamul extension and is also significantly cheaper, to produce, it lacks the firepower I wanted but it's simple enough to add better weapons to replace the machineguns later and until then 4 of them provides a 360 degree field of fire from 4 weapons providing a lot of fire support while mobile or stationary and it keeps the heavy armor to enable it to operate in areas with enemy armor. ))

16, SPIA ( Self proppeled indirect artillery. ) Design a halftrack with front wheels and rear tracks, add an armored roof that can be withdrawn to the sides of the rear compartment to provide cover while mobile and additional armor when in use.
Attach an indirect firing artillery piece that can be adjusted to a high enough angle to use against aircraft also make it capable of firing a 160 mm HE shell and a 160mm varient of the 40mm AA time fused shell. Credit to Mesor for the artillery and Elfeater for the Halftrack idea.

(( We have the shell size already so no new size to create, we have no mobile artillery everything needs to be dragged into position which takes time for transport and more to set up, this can move at speeds near that of the badger on it's own and has armor as well, enabling us to move large numbers of artillery into position, use them then move out again in a far far shorter length of time then anything else we've got, it also does enough damage to knock out a tank and though it's not built for it, it can at a stretch provide atleast some AA fire. In some situations it may be useful I suppose for AA. ))





+1 to these.

5. Have our aerospace engineer, along with a novice or two, experiment with single-wing style airframes. (Yes, monoplanes.)

1.1. Ensure that the Alexi has four torpedo tubes, to ensure maximum anti-ship firepower.

Let the engineers give the SMG another try, but use the 9mm short cartridge from our earlier pistol, and reduce magazine size to 30-40 round drum/stick mags.

6. Apply improvements to existing products, and make use of trophy carbines for the army when possible/needed.

7. Further improve engine. (Happens before 6 if approved.)

8. Apply spare workers to churning out SVA-10s and the like, but airforce and navy take precedence.

9. Produce more planes.

This is a violation of the rules. Reuse of numbers.

Its also a rewrite of a proposal that was written by someone else. While I didn't expressly define that as a rule, i thought it was implicit.

On the subject of the heavy tank (i think we were calling it the K-1?):

Test out the suspensions, drive train and engines. make sure they run well. Ideally try to make sure ware is either reduced to a minimum or eliminated in all meaningful ways. Then start work on the turret. ideally I'd personally want the turret to be a 3 man turret with ample extra room, to cater for more ammo when using a 40mm gun and more room for a larger gun when needed.

I mocked up what i would like the turret to look like. It is currently 'fitted' with a 110mm cannon:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

On the hatch at the top which hasn't got slanted protection (the commanders hatch) there should be an MG attached for the commander to use when out the hatch.

Also, i think we should really think about converting the engines to diesel, as well as tuning them up so they are more powerful.

As for an APC: I support a modified version of the Badger. However, keep the Armour the same as the MK1 Medium tank and the 40mm turret and cannon, but up the engines to the two used in the MK2. Add in the firing slots and enough room to fit 8 men and we're done.

A Self Propelled artillery version of the MK2 badger should be built too, furthering what Brood said earlier but not on a halftrack base. Not sure what gun we should use, although if we do build it the gun would be the current 80mm cannon.

Moving on to planes, i support the previous notion that we should at least start looking into monoplanes and maybe looking into early jet engines (the first jet engines were designed by a British fighter pilot in 1926 parallel to the efforts of a German scientist in the same year).

Finally, i support the continued work on the Alexi, as well as any variants we come up with.

Are these supposed to be proposals?

I vote for 15.1
While I don't want APCs yet, voting shows that we'll get one, and I prefer that good practical design to a bad tracked IFV and urge others who dislike Broods concept do the same

Brood, BTW, you can't change the proposal and name it with the same number, really. In that way votes for older proposal will count for newer and that's wrong

As for production proposals

I propose

20
Refit our cruisers, by removing mines and mining equipment and placing Hydra turrets in place, thus boosting their AA potential. Also replace it's 40mm  guns  with 40mm Cannon Mk2s. But do that only if that will not hurt production of Alexi! Most workforce should go to the prototype
And increase our dockyard yet again if that necessary for above


9.1  Ask generals to produce another factory, that will specialize on producing all the small arms we designed (as they see fit) and offer to look for mosin nagants export possibilities
Our workers are too valuable to mass produce small arms!

Also, I ask for more votes for 12, we need a flagship, even if that will be dated shit.

Umm, UR I already proposed 9.1...though I cannot honestly remember the number right now!

It was 16

which is a duplicate number, same problem as the other 15 and 16 above.



I don't know what this means:
6. Apply improvements to existing products, and make use of trophy carbines for the army when possible/needed.

and this appears to be an unnumbered proposal:
Let the engineers give the SMG another try, but use the 9mm short cartridge from our earlier pistol, and reduce magazine size to 30-40 round drum/stick mags.

[Nadaka]

On this years engineering agenda:
Finish design of the Alexi, with 4 torpedo tubes. Experiment with single wing airframes. Further improve the gas aviation/multi purpose engine. Design am inexpensive multipurpose armored half-track with all terrain ability and towing. Design a SPIA (self proppeled indirect artillery) halftrack carrying a 160mm cannon.


On this years construction agenda:
Produce more planes. Build a training facility to enhance training for our engineers.

50 Novice workers are assigned to the construction of a training facility. They do an excellent job, producing a facility more than twice as large as you might need. They do such a good job in fact that the govornemt takes notice and begines making plans to make use of the graduates for a variety of civil engineering projects. You will still have your choice of graduating specialists, lets say 4 engineers/year in any specialty you request.

The remainder of your workers focus on supplimenting our fleet of aircraft. 252 roll off your factory floor to suppliment the nearly 100 produced in the dedicated factory.


2 experienced engineers, 4 engineers and 2 novice engineers wrap up the design work for your Alexi class frigate. They work in tandem with the construction of the prototype because so little from the original design had to be changed. The final design is:

Weight: 1134tons
Length: 80m
Propulsion: 4mw diesel
Crew: 120
Speed: 43km/h
Armor: 70mm band up to 4.4m tall
Armament:
2 double 80mm turrets
4 double 40mm turrets
4 hydra turrets
4 torpedo tubes (31 total torpedo's)

Tonnage Allocations:
200 tons diesel
400 tons armor
300 tons frigate parts
100 tons primary cannons
40 tons secondary cannons
20 tons machine gun turrets
12 tons torpedo systems
62 tons torpedo's

Note: I originally underestimated the tonnage of the weapons, after that was accounted for I added as many torpedo's as my formula would allow without dropping another km/h.

On improving our aviation engine, 1 experienced engineer, 6 engineers and 3 novices are assigned. Not only do they meet their goal, but they exceed it as well. They increase the cylinder count to 8 and move to an opposed piston setup instead of inline, shaving 30% off the weight of the crankshaft to partially offset the +30% weight of the extra cylinders. In addition they added a turbo charger that further increases power output.

The change in engine shape will prevent it from being used as a replacement for current vehicles using the older design.

Weight: 350kg
Power: 260kw

On designing a single wing plane, the experienced aviation engineer, 6 engineers and 3 novice engineers are assigned. They make good progress but the design remains incomplete. 35

On designing of a multi purpose half track armored car, 2 experienced engineers, 6 engineers and 3 novice engineers are assigned. Their final design is functional.

The final design has a drivers cabin large enough to fit two with 12mm of armor all around and a shuttered windscreen. Its engine is center mounted to provide minor protection. An open bed in the back provides seating for up to 6 soldiers with minimal protection from side armor of 8mm. It utilizes our existing 170kw gas engine and weights aproximately 10 tons. It can reach up to 70km/h. The roof of the cab has a mount similar to the tripods used by any of the Patriot MG's, and when attached, it provides a forwards field of fire by someone standing in the back of the vehicle.

On the designing of a 160mm self propelled artillery, 1 experienced engineer, 7 engineers and 3 novice engineers are assigned. Little progress is made, and at least 3 glaring design flaws must be overcome. 62

At your disposal:
9 experienced engineers
27 engineers
13 novice engineers
1 experienced aviation engineer


3 veteran worker
49 experienced workers
125 workers
122 novice workers

A new brick office
A large flat field, suitable for use as a runway.
An old partially bombed out wharf with:
1 operational dockyard up to a displacement of 2300 tons (large enough for frigates)
3 warehouses converted to a small factory/machine shop.
1 College of Engineering (produces 4 engineer specialists/year)

Your nations military manufacturing:
1 factory producing Mosin Nagants with upgraded ring sights (lots/year)
2 factories recently retooled for the Badger Mk2 (~200/year)
1 factory producing 40mm hopper fed guns for towable guns (~200/year)
1 factory producing 40mm improved feed guns (mostly supplying the Badger Mk2 factories)
1 factory producing 170kw gas engines (mostly supplying the Badger Mk2 factories)
1 factory producing 80mm low velocity guns (~60/year)
1 factories producing Patriotism Mk1 water cooled machine guns (~400/year)
1 factory producing biplanes (~100/year)
2 factory producing air cooled Patriotism Mk2 air cooled machine guns (~600/year)

recently completed:
1 factory producing 320mm coastal defense guns
Allocation of an 800 ton boat yard to the production of Righteous PT boats

Under construction:
Allocation of an 800 ton boat yard to the production of Popular Devotion support ships
Allocation of a 1200 ton boat yard to the production of Alexi class frigates.

*************************************
Hoping to have had another year to prepare, the Morovians where not so generous. Towards the end of the year a pair of small submarines aproach your fleet, surface briefly and fire 2 torpedo's each from long range and vanish beneath the waves. On of your Popular Devotion destroyers has been sunk. A number of Rightious PT boats comb the area, but do not detect the submarines.
*************************************



Infantry:
~25000 veteran infantry
~10000 infantry (minimal combat experience)
~20000 novice infantry (no  combat experience)
Standard Issue Equipment
Armor: woolen winter long coat + open steel helmet
Primary Weapon: Mosin Nagant with improved ring sights
Secondary Weapon: bayonet

~3400 Patriotism mk1 water cooled machine guns
~2900 Patriotism mk2 air cooled machine guns

~300 special forces
Armor: woolen winter long coat + open steel helmet
Primary weapon: varies
Secondary weapon: varies
10 14mm sniper rifles
30 9mm pistols
30 shotguns
30 SVA-10
~2000 captured 6mm carbines


Armor & Artillery:
533 40mm towable cannons
160 Badger Tanks (diesel)
432 Badger Tanks (gas)
223 80mm medium cannons
48 Hydra AA badger variant
1 320mm coastal defense cannon


Air Force:
20 recon balloons
730 fighter biplanes

Naval:
2 Glorious Cruisers
2 Popular Devotion Destroyers/Support ships
1 Alexi class frigate
53 Righteous PT boats

[10ebbor10]

((In order to prevent double usage of numbers, I propose we drop an abbreviated version of each suggestion in the spoiler))


1. Continue work on the single wing plane design.
2. Develop double hulls for our ships. Question: "Would adding a small layer of cheap armor ofset from the hull just under the water line be enough to detonate torpedos prematurely,limiting damage?"
3. Design a larger variant of the current biplane fighter, using the new engine. It's a bit better armored, but more importantly, is equiped with airdroppable torpedoes/mines rather than machine guns.
    3.a Design a normal bomber variant too.
    3.b Design these mines.
    3.c Design torpedoes which use timed detonation rather than hit detonation. They operate several meters below the water level, and are intended against submarines.
4.Develop Hydrophones. (Or whatever than acoustic naval detection system is called.)

Spoiler: List (click to show/hide)

1.Single wing plane
2.Double ship hulls
3. Antisubmarine/ship biplane bomber
     a) Standard bomber variant
     b) Advanced sea mines (Antisub and normal variants)
     c) Timed torpedoes
4) Acoustic submarine detection system

[Ukrainian Ranger]

comments: (will do counter somewhat later, that's not votes and not proposals)

1. Whatever, but I'd prefer to design real aircraft with defined role.... It's not like monoplane is an unknown concept

2. Anti-torpedo bulges and\or torpedo belt is something that we should include to our future designs. sure. But I should note that this is practical only for bigger ships, cruiser+ (as for smaller  ship they either will be not thick enough to truly matter, or will slow down the ship considerably)
As for torpedo net like thin armor, torpedos can and will penetrate it before detonating

What we need is to develop torpedo nets in our harbors, or we'll get hit harded

3. Torpedoes aren't weapon you use against subs (in modern world of self guided torpedoes that's not true, but back than it's near;y  impossible to his any sub, especially a small one) , mines aren't good against small ships, either. Depth charges are our best bet. That's what we need to develop

[RAM]

Please bold the above proposals.

Weird, I thought that they were called submarine destroyers, but wikipaedia says they are called torpedo-boat destroyers. Oh well, doesn't really matter, their purpose is to fight smaller ships so that the larger ships don't have to... Of course, reading wikipaedia, it seems that the modern ones seem to be a sort of a 'kill everything' sort of fish, presumably aircraft are expected to do the entirety of fleet protection...

They operate several meters below the sea floor

Something here has completely lost me, and designing something that has the faintest clue what the sea floor is seems challenging at the least, so I am guessing that you mean the water's surface.

2.1: If the answer to the question seems to be "no" then look for other options, such as spiked armour, nets, remote lines to get tangled in propellors and catch the torpedoes before they hit anything. Small depth charges to shoot in front of torpedoes. Or anything else they can come up with.

Vote for 4

5: Assign 3 engineers and a novice engineer to begin design of a mobile 320mm artillery piece. Name it the Mark One Cod, because sooner or later you have to accept that subtlety isn't appropriate...

6: Ask for engine specialists, and have three of them head a project to develop a diesel engine for tanks. I am thinking of something in the order of 500kg and focusing on getting the ventilation and exhaust systems compatible with the constraints of an armoured vehicle and the desire to filter our potential hostile agents.

7: Give a novice engineer and an engine specialist one of the new aircraft engines and let them tinker with it. probably mostly power to weight ration, but

I want someone to take a look at our propellers at some point, but that can wait...

8: refine the armoured car. Focus on making it capable of being remodelled to be a variety of different vehicles without having to meddle with the major components.

9: Design a twin-engined biplane with three 14 mm sniper rifled with a simple automatic loading mechanism with a trigger that causes them to fire sequentially.

[10ebbor10]

1. Just building upon the already existant research
2. Noted
3. Ok, noted. Hence why I intended them to be timed. More like a longer range depthcharge than anything else. (In hindsight, it should have been added as a seperate suggestion).
    Reading through the wiki, I found some interesting things. Mainly, most submarines were destroyed by mines. To be fair, that's U-Boats, which are signifcantly larger.

Mines 58, Depth charges 30, Gunfire 20, Submarine torpedoes 20, Ramming 19, Unknown 19, Accidents 7, Other (including bombs) 2

@RAM: Oops

10. Depth Charges in all shapes and forms
11. Small, capable airship equiped with several of the new engines. Basically, I want to make use of these things large cargo capacity to deliver large amounts of mines/depth bombs

Spoiler: List (click to show/hide)

1.Single wing plane
2.Double ship hulls
    1) Alternative anti torpedo defense options
3. Antisubmarine/ship biplane bomber
     a) Standard bomber variant
     b) Advanced sea mines (Antisub and normal variants)
     c) Timed torpedoes
4) Acoustic submarine detection system
5.) Mobile artillery piece (320mm)
6.) Tank diesel engine
7) Messing with aircraft engine
Refining armoured car
9)Twin engined Sniper biplane
10) Depth charges
11) Airship Bomber