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Let's say someone has the means to make a perfect copy of you, give it $10, and destroy your original body, all with a 100% success rate, and he offers to do this to you. Would you accept?

Yes
- 10 (17.9%)
No
- 46 (82.1%)

Total Members Voted: 53


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Author Topic: Consciousness and brain transfers  (Read 14133 times)

Catsup

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Re: Consciousness and brain transfers
« Reply #240 on: April 27, 2013, 02:50:19 pm »

Their precise physical makeups and memories would not be identical. And dammit, that 'something individually unique' thing means you're gonna do the whole 'of course we have souls' thing, aren't you? I hate it when people do that.
ok, lets suppose then that instead of 2 twins we have you and your clone. You and your clone STILL would not react perfectly the same way to similar stimulus reliably.

and dont get me wrong, souls do not exist. Im simply saying that even though bodies, memories, and personality can be duplicated, humans' "ability to become conscious", their individual awareness of the world cannot be duplicated. This is why its so hard to make a flexible artificial intelligence that can pass off as completely human.

Catsup

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Re: Consciousness and brain transfers
« Reply #241 on: April 27, 2013, 02:52:37 pm »

BUT. That means that you are not the same person that you were a second ago. There is no 'me'.
he is the same person, his personality and behavior changed slightly due to the addition of new memories and experience. This is where your logic fails, and mines seems more rational.

Gamerlord

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Re: Consciousness and brain transfers
« Reply #242 on: April 27, 2013, 02:54:42 pm »

BUT. That means that you are not the same person that you were a second ago. There is no 'me'.
he is the same person, his personality and behavior changed slightly due to the addition of new memories and experience. This is where your logic fails, and mines seems more rational.
BUT THAT IS THE EXACT DAME THING THAT HAPPENED TO THE CLONE. BY YOUR LOGIC, THE CLONE IS THE SAME PERSON AS YOU. EXCEPT YOU DENY THAT.

Catsup

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Re: Consciousness and brain transfers
« Reply #243 on: April 27, 2013, 02:58:32 pm »

BUT THAT IS THE EXACT DAME THING THAT HAPPENED TO THE CLONE. BY YOUR LOGIC, THE CLONE IS THE SAME PERSON AS YOU. EXCEPT YOU DENY THAT.
no, the clone is not the same person as you because they can evaluate new experiences and stimuli on their own, independent of your nervous functions.

i'll give another example, hypothetically lets say your clone and you NEVER experience any new stimuli upon being cloned, even if everything is exactly the same, and nothing is added or changed to memory. You are still 2 separate beings that can evaluate stimuli individually, and thus they were never you to begin with.

EDIT: i'll also give an example of a clone that i WOULD see as being you. This is entirely fantasy as the human mind cannot work this way, but its practically hive-mind with being able to control and sense out of both bodies, your field of vision is split between 2 bodies. Whatever each body feels, whatever stimulus is evaluated by only a single instance of your thought process.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2013, 03:01:22 pm by Catsup »
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Kansa

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Re: Consciousness and brain transfers
« Reply #244 on: April 27, 2013, 02:58:59 pm »

he is the same person, his personality and behavior changed slightly due to the addition of new memories and experience. This is where your logic fails, and mines seems more rational.

Even though I disagree with him I can see where the logic makes sense, if the only difference between the clone and myself was a few seconds of memory you could argue that as the clone is a different person the original would be a different person as well as the original has a few more seconds of memory that the you from a few seconds ago.

This is really getting down to something we cannot prove either way, even if we had the technology to do this it would be impossible to prove as the clone would have memories of being that person and therefore to an outside onlooker or even to the clone itself it would still be the same person in their eyes.
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Lysabild

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Re: Consciousness and brain transfers
« Reply #245 on: April 27, 2013, 03:00:47 pm »

Okay, put these two identical beings in each their box, one in a red box and one in a blue box. Are they the same person before they open their eyes and see the color? Are they the same person after?
Do they experience the same thing? When you let them out of their boxes and they see each other, do they seem themselves or someone very much like them? At any point, is this information shared between them, even if neither speaks at any point? If the one from the blue box is then taken to another box where he is put to sleep and the one from the red is taken out to the street and let go, is the one from the red box the same as the now dead one from the blue box? Can we agree that the guy from the blue box is now dead?

Can you accept that I'd rather be the one who woke up in a red box in above scenario?
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MagmaMcFry

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Re: Consciousness and brain transfers
« Reply #246 on: April 27, 2013, 03:02:07 pm »

Please unambiguously explain to me why you don't want to die.

Because if I am dead, I can't experience the world anymore.
Again with the mind/body confusion. At least your statement makes sense for every definition of "I":
Quote
Because if my body is dead, my body can't experience the world anymore.
Quote
Because if my mind is gone, my mind can't experience the world anymore.
I totally agree to both these things, and they're kinda obvious. But here's what's tripping you up:
Quote
Because if my body is dead, my mind can't experience the world anymore.
This is what you think, based on equivocation of body and mind. It's intuitive, since the real world currently works this way. BUT, this scenario makes an exception, wherein your mind can live on long after your original body is dead. The only reason you are arguing against getting those $10 is because you are uncomfortable with these unfamiliar thoughts, and you would gladly pay $10 for peace of mind.

Quote
So people with dementia don't posses minds?
If there somehow was a person with absolute complete dementia, they would have no memories, therefore empty minds.

Mind: Set of memories.
if this is the case, then you can already immortalize yourself by creating a computer program that responds to outside stimulus using your existing experiences. So go ahead and do that then kill yourself and give the computer 10 bucks, good luck.
Why would I want to kill a perfectly good copy of myself if I can avoid that?

Quote
Why would you believe that the world does not exist outside your cognitive capabilities? If you are already going to believe in a personally unverifiable assumption, then why not believe in what the evidence tells you, namely that the world has existed for some billion years already? Now you'll probably want to change your statement to:
ahh but you see my friend, the world has existed, the universe has existed, for immemorial. It is all meaningless. It may have well not existed because for all that time, all those trillions of years we were unborn and in darkness. There is nothing the world can give us. It may have well not been there until we were born.
Great job, you discovered that your existence is meaningless if you don't give yourselves personal goals. If your goal is to understand how the world works, you should probably go with the evidence.

Quote
Here's a further question: Assume you were disassembled and subsequently rebuilt with all the same particles in the exact same configuration. Would "you" still be "you"?
no, i believe you permanently died when the cells in your brain cannot function. Disassembling at the molecular level destroys the brain. Re-assembly creates a entirely new one.
Good. Now imagine that all the particles that you are made of are simultaneously and instantaneously replaced by other particles of the same kind. Would that kill you?

he is the same person, his personality and behavior changed slightly due to the addition of new memories and experience. This is where your logic fails, and mines seems more rational.

Even though I disagree with him I can see where the logic makes sense, if the only difference between the clone and myself was a few seconds of memory you could argue that as the clone is a different person the original would be a different person as well as the original has a few more seconds of memory that the you from a few seconds ago.

This is really getting down to something we cannot prove either way, even if we had the technology to do this it would be impossible to prove as the clone would have memories of being that person and therefore to an outside onlooker or even to the clone itself it would still be the same person in their eyes.
My sentiment is that since we can't prove it either way, we don't need to care about it.
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Gamerlord

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Re: Consciousness and brain transfers
« Reply #247 on: April 27, 2013, 03:03:27 pm »

BUT THAT IS THE EXACT DAME THING THAT HAPPENED TO THE CLONE. BY YOUR LOGIC, THE CLONE IS THE SAME PERSON AS YOU. EXCEPT YOU DENY THAT.
no, the clone is not the same person as you because they can evaluate new experiences and stimuli on their own, independent of your nervous functions.

i'll give another example, hypothetically lets say your clone and you NEVER experience any new stimuli upon being cloned, even if everything is exactly the same, and nothing is added or changed to memory. You are still 2 separate beings that can evaluate stimuli individually, and thus they were never you to begin with.
*twitch*
I'm out. Thus guy is impossible. I know it's there, but I can't quite find the exact point at which his logic does a 180 and runs up it's own arsehole. It just doesn't make any kind of sense to me. Goodbye, Catsup. May your insanity bring you happiness.

Catsup

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Re: Consciousness and brain transfers
« Reply #248 on: April 27, 2013, 03:05:12 pm »

May your insanity bring you happiness.
;D

Can we agree that the guy from the blue box is now dead?
no, we cant agree the guy from the blue box is now dead because his memories live on in a body that looks exactly like him and thinks they are him, and is walking around randomly outside.

MagmaMcFry

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Re: Consciousness and brain transfers
« Reply #249 on: April 27, 2013, 03:08:58 pm »

Okay, put these two identical beings in each their box, one in a red box and one in a blue box. Are they the same person before they open their eyes and see the color? Are they the same person after?
Do they experience the same thing? When you let them out of their boxes and they see each other, do they seem themselves or someone very much like them? At any point, is this information shared between them, even if neither speaks at any point? If the one from the blue box is then taken to another box where he is put to sleep and the one from the red is taken out to the street and let go, is the one from the red box the same as the now dead one from the blue box? Can we agree that the guy from the blue box is now dead?

Can you accept that I'd rather be the one who woke up in a red box in above scenario?
Note that being in the red box has nothing to do with being a clone. So you would prefer to be the one who stays alive, regardless of whether you are a clone or not? Then would you accept the $10?
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Graknorke

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Re: Consciousness and brain transfers
« Reply #250 on: April 27, 2013, 03:13:45 pm »

Can we agree that the guy from the blue box is now dead?
no, we cant agree the guy from the blue box is now dead because his memories live on in a body that looks exactly like him and thinks they are him, and is walking around randomly outside.
No, the guy in the blue box is dead. You can open that box and there is definitely a corpse in there. Whatever fleeting uniqueness he may have had is gone.
But the person from before the whole copying incident is not dead. They live on as the clone in the red box.
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Catsup

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Re: Consciousness and brain transfers
« Reply #251 on: April 27, 2013, 03:13:52 pm »

Why would I want to kill a perfectly good copy of myself if I can avoid that?
im not sure, why did the original get destroyed in the poll?

Great job, you discovered that your existence is meaningless if you don't give yourselves personal goals. If your goal is to understand how the world works, you should probably go with the evidence.
what are you talking about? i said the world's existence before i came into existence was meaningless. If anything i would say the world finally has meaning since i can perceive it and make meaning of it now that i exist. When i said there is nothing the world can give us, i mean before we came into existence. There is nothing the world can give us if we arent there to receive it.


Good. Now imagine that all the particles that you are made of are simultaneously and instantaneously replaced by other particles of the same kind. Would that kill you?
i dont think this is possible physically, and even if there was some way to emulate it, the test subject would not be able to know themselves.

i think we should set a line for realism, i know you die when your brain cells cease to function, very simple and realistic.

Lysabild

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Re: Consciousness and brain transfers
« Reply #252 on: April 27, 2013, 03:15:10 pm »

Note that being in the red box has nothing to do with being a clone. So you would prefer to be the one who stays alive, regardless of whether you are a clone or not? Then would you accept the $10?

You don't answer any of my questions, yet I've answered yours. I am not a clone, I don't want to die, I won't let somebody kill me, I don't gain anything from another me leaving the shop after I've died, no matter how perfectly 'me' he is.
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Graknorke

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Re: Consciousness and brain transfers
« Reply #253 on: April 27, 2013, 03:18:11 pm »

Note that being in the red box has nothing to do with being a clone. So you would prefer to be the one who stays alive, regardless of whether you are a clone or not? Then would you accept the $10?

You don't answer any of my questions, yet I've answered yours. I am not a clone, I don't want to die, I won't let somebody kill me, I don't gain anything from another me leaving the shop after I've died, no matter how perfectly 'me' he is.
So you're saying that the you who would be killed would not be mighty pleased?
Fair enough. But they'll be dead. The real strain is on the survivor. Knowing that they just let someone die for ten dollars. Even though they are both (ncredibly close to) the same person, it'd still feel pretty awful.
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Catsup

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Re: Consciousness and brain transfers
« Reply #254 on: April 27, 2013, 03:19:12 pm »

You don't answer any of my questions, yet I've answered yours. I am not a clone, I don't want to die, I won't let somebody kill me, I don't gain anything from another me leaving the shop after I've died, no matter how perfectly 'me' he is.
ah but you see my friend, you are not dead, you live on because your clone has all your memories, thinks they are you, and is an exact copy of you in anyway. In the eyes of the world, you never died. Isnt that wonderful?
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