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[DeKaFu]

Both are you, pretty much. Both would have a memory of making the decision. Both would have a memory of the concerns over various problems. Well, they would if one of them wasn't immediately dead, but you get the point.

Yup. I said that was the main problem. New-me would be stuck with "was this actually worth killing my original self for, did I make a mistake" from then on. I'd be weighing my ability to cope with that against the percieved payoff when I made the decision.

I will never have any really emotionally healthy brain-clones.

Edit: Unless they are also modified to forget the situation surrounding the cloning. Hahaha, can of worms.

[Max White]

Are you upset with the idea that a clone might take your place? Would you not want this to happen?

You have no reason to be upset about taking your own place if you are ok with it.

[MagmaMcFry]

Again with this thing. He is not dead until personal memories of him are gone. Those copies ARE his mind. they experience things from his perspective, bar the change in the time after the copying process.

there is your memories, your experiences in life that define who you are and how you act.

there is the brain, which store these memories and which emulates your consciousness.

and there is consciousness, which is your individual awareness of the world.

losing your memories does not make you dead, you can make some new ones and keep living in the world. Losing your consciousness makes you DEAD since even if there are clones running around with your memories, they have a separate consciousness that is their own. They are NOT you.

Losing consciousness makes you dead? Then I suggest you don't ever sleep again, because while sleeping, you obviously don't have consciousness. Also, consciousness is not a thing that exists for a period of time. Since a consciousness is simply a collection of thoughts, any consciousness only exists at one point in time. Different thoughts, different consciousness. Different time, different thoughts. Simple as that.

it doesnt matter if your clone is a perfect copy of you with the same thought processes and personality, because your dead...

There is no consciousness anymore for something to not matter. In the phrase "x matters to y", y refers to a mind, not a body. Your mind is still alive, so how can it matter to that mind that it is dead?

Hmm, would I also accept cloning if there was a change in my physical features?
No, I would not. I am emotionally attached to my body as much as I am to my survival. If the clones body was a replica of mine, or my body was a replica of the original, I would be happy, as I am the same person. However, even if I think in the same manor, if you change my physical capabilities, I am a different person...

Yes, I know this is irrational, my body is constantly being replaced with something new. Still...

I would have no problems with that, as long as the new body would be subjectively better than the old body.

New-me would be stuck with "was this actually worth killing my original self for, did I make a mistake" from then on.

You would only be stuck with that question until you answer it. Answering questions whenever possible is kinda mandatory for rational thought.

[Catsup]

Losing consciousness makes you dead? Then I suggest you don't ever sleep again, because while sleeping, you obviously don't have consciousness. Also, consciousness is not a thing that exists for a period of time. Since a consciousness is simply a collection of thoughts, any consciousness only exists at one point in time. Different thoughts, different consciousness. Different time, different thoughts. Simple as that.

we've been over this, you do not completely lose consciousness when you sleep. And consciousness is not a collection of thoughts, that is your memory. Consciousness is your awareness of the world.

There is no consciousness anymore for something to not matter. In the phrase "x matters to y", y refers to a mind, not a body. Your mind is still alive, so how can it matter to that mind that it is dead?

your mind is no longer alive, your memories are alive in your clone, your original mind, including consciousness is dead and buried.

Are you upset with the idea that a clone might take your place? Would you not want this to happen?

You have no reason to be upset about taking your own place if you are ok with it.

a clone is not you though, they are a separate person from yourself. I wouldnt let a superior clone of myself replace me, even if they could achieve my dreams, that i could not.

[Kadzar]

The discussion in this thread has made me think that, if any hyper-advance civilization exists or will come to exist in the future, they would probably enact hypothetical scenarios as entertainment. Like, they'd clone somebody, implant mind-reading probes in their skulls, then observe the internal conflict when you tell them one of them has to die. It'd be their version of reality tv.

[Frumple]

we've been over this, you do not completely lose consciousness when you sleep. And consciousness is not a collection of thoughts, that is your memory. Consciousness is your awareness of the world.

You can definitely lose consciousness entirely without dying, though. Comas, hard enough hit to the head, etc., so forth, so on. Total sensory deprivation/full awareness loss is pretty rare, but it's possible for it to happen without killing a person (or sometimes, without them staying dead, heh.).

If losing consciousness is all it takes to be considered dead, and consciousness is just an awareness of the world (though note, that's usually not the definition for it, or at least not the whole one. Awareness of the self/differentiation from other things tends to come into play), then there's a fair number of dead people walking around right now.

[DeKaFu]

Are you upset with the idea that a clone might take your place? Would you not want this to happen?

You have no reason to be upset about taking your own place if you are ok with it.

...In the context of my alien planet scenario? I'd be choosing to make exactly that happen. I'd just potentially stress out about it after like one would after any extreme sacrifice made to reach a goal.

In a perfect clone scenario with nobody having to be killed off? I guess I don't have any problem with a second me running around. I'd try to avoid screwing up my own (old) life if I were the clone. They'd probably end up fairly different than me over time, at which point they'd be more like a family member.

[Xantalos]

Okay, giant philosophical discussion. One question for me; am I dying or dead in this hypothetical scenario? Because if I accepted the offer as I am now I'd actually end up worse off.

[Catsup]

You can definitely lose consciousness entirely without dying, though. Comas, hard enough hit to the head, etc., so forth, so on. Total sensory deprivation/full awareness loss is pretty rare, but it's possible for it to happen without killing a person (or sometimes, without them staying dead, heh.).

If losing consciousness is all it takes to be considered dead, and consciousness is just an awareness of the world (though note, that's usually not the definition for it, or at least not the whole one. Awareness of the self/differentiation from other things tends to come into play), then there's a fair number of dead people walking around right now.

yes, but he defined consciousness as dieing when you went to sleep, and then you getting a "new" consciousness when you awaken.
I agree that its possible to lose consciousness and not be considered dead, but if its not a permanent loss then it will be the same one as when you were awake before when you re-awaken.

[Eric Blank]

Are you upset with the idea that a clone might take your place? Would you not want this to happen?

You have no reason to be upset about taking your own place if you are ok with it.

I'm not really concerned with someone taking my place, especially if they're indistinguishable form me. I do, however, have a problem with ceasing to live. I know I won't have an afterlife, so my objective is to keep myself alive, not replace myself. I see no point in replacing myself, though. I'd be ok with the method of switching biological neurons with mechanical ones on the cellular level, because those mechanical neurons may be able to function for longer, but I'd prefer to continue to use biological neurons because biological tissue already has ways to repair itself, so if we can develop a therapy to reduce entropy by some means and allow our tissue to persist longer before failing altogether, I would be happy with that.

One thing that was mentioned recently by my biology instructor is the fact that when a cell undergoes mitosis, and the threads which pulled chromosomes over to opposite poles of the dividing cell are separating from the chromosomes, they actually break off a part of the chromosome which remains attached to the thread. This implies that as you age, the very mechanism of tissue repair is detrimental to the daughter cells because each daughter cell probably lost part of it's information, which won't be repaired before those cells again divide. So, every moment after your conception entropy within your genetic material is increasing.
Even having no personal experience as a bioengineer, I still had a small idea how we might help reverse this to a degree; when we are born, we can take a tissue sample and preserve it, without permitting it to further undergo mitosis (or limit it). If we have the ability to force these tissue samples to revert to stem cells, then we can, later in your life, reintroduce the tissue to you, giving you a supplement of younger tissue that may function more effectively than the tissues that have undergone mitosis many millions of times since your birth.

[Catsup]

One thing that was mentioned recently by my biology instructor is the fact that when a cell undergoes mitosis, and the threads which pulled chromosomes over to opposite poles of the dividing cell are separating from the chromosomes, they actually break off a part of the chromosome which remains attached to the thread. This implies that as you age, the very mechanism of tissue repair is detrimental to the daughter cells because each daughter cell probably lost part of it's information, which won't be repaired before those cells again divide.

this is just a theory though, i personally think its because of our inherent metabolism and genes for senescence, and in general just the way our bodies are designed.

i think the idea of mechanical neurons is appealing but i dont think its possible to replace your biological brain without destroying your consciousness in the process and killing you. It seems to be less of a risk if done gradually but even then there is still some risk.

[MagmaMcFry]

I'd just potentially stress out about it after like one would after any extreme sacrifice made to reach a goal.

That's kinda not really extreme.

You can definitely lose consciousness entirely without dying, though. Comas, hard enough hit to the head, etc., so forth, so on. Total sensory deprivation/full awareness loss is pretty rare, but it's possible for it to happen without killing a person (or sometimes, without them staying dead, heh.).

If losing consciousness is all it takes to be considered dead, and consciousness is just an awareness of the world (though note, that's usually not the definition for it, or at least not the whole one. Awareness of the self/differentiation from other things tends to come into play), then there's a fair number of dead people walking around right now.

yes, but he defined consciousness as dieing when you went to sleep, and then you getting a "new" consciousness when you awaken.
I agree that its possible to lose consciousness and not be considered dead, but it its not a permanent loss then it will be the same one as when you were awake before when you re-awaken.

I should probably also define the concept of dying. Here's a definition: Dying is something that only bodies can do, it results in permanent absence of consciousness and therefore loss of any memories saved on the brain.

Consciousnesses can't "die", since they don't exist for measurable periods of time.

Are you upset with the idea that a clone might take your place? Would you not want this to happen?

You have no reason to be upset about taking your own place if you are ok with it.

I'm not really concerned with someone taking my place, especially if they're indistinguishable form me. I do, however, have a problem with ceasing to live. I know I won't have an afterlife, so my objective is to keep myself alive, not replace myself. I see no point in replacing myself, though. I'd be ok with the method of switching biological neurons with mechanical ones on the cellular level, because those mechanical neurons may be able to function for longer, but I'd prefer to continue to use biological neurons because biological tissue already has ways to repair itself, so if we can develop a therapy to reduce entropy by some means and allow our tissue to persist longer before failing altogether, I would be happy with that.

One thing that was mentioned recently by my biology instructor is the fact that when a cell undergoes mitosis, and the threads which pulled chromosomes over to opposite poles of the dividing cell are separating from the chromosomes, they actually break off a part of the chromosome which remains attached to the thread. This implies that as you age, the very mechanism of tissue repair is detrimental to the daughter cells because each daughter cell probably lost part of it's information, which won't be repaired before those cells again divide. So, every moment after your conception entropy within your genetic material is increasing.
Even having no personal experience as a bioengineer, I still had a small idea how we might help reverse this to a degree; when we are born, we can take a tissue sample and preserve it, without permitting it to further undergo mitosis (or limit it). If we have the ability to force these tissue samples to revert to stem cells, then we can, later in your life, reintroduce the tissue to you, giving you a supplement of younger tissue that may function more effectively than the tissues that have undergone mitosis many millions of times since your birth.

You are referring to telomeres, the redundant pieces of crap at the ends of chromosomes. Some creatures have genes that enable cells to replace telomeres, and scientists have already identified those genes a long time ago and have already spent a few years putting those genes into mice and seeing what happens. But I don't know what they've got to yet.

[Catsup]

I should probably also define the concept of dying. Here's a definition: Dying is something that only bodies can do, it results in permanent absence of consciousness and therefore loss of any memories saved on the brain.

Consciousnesses can't "die", since they don't exist for measurable periods of time.

ok then we agree being alive means you have the "ability to become conscious". You lose that ability when you die and your brain rots. It doesnt matter if you have a clone with the same memories as you. You wont one day suddenly re-awaken in your clones' beautiful, youthful body (unless you transferred your brain into them).

[DeKaFu]

One thing that was mentioned recently by my biology instructor is the fact that when a cell undergoes mitosis, and the threads which pulled chromosomes over to opposite poles of the dividing cell are separating from the chromosomes, they actually break off a part of the chromosome which remains attached to the thread. This implies that as you age, the very mechanism of tissue repair is detrimental to the daughter cells because each daughter cell probably lost part of it's information, which won't be repaired before those cells again divide. So, every moment after your conception entropy within your genetic material is increasing.

You're talking about telomeres. There's bits of repetitive data that don't actually code for anything at the ends of chromosomes, there just to act as a buffer zone, and they get whittled off bit by bit as the cells divide and don't come back, and once they're gone the actual genes start getting damaged. It's why animals cloned from adults don't live as long.

There's an enzyme called telomerase that can rebuild them and make cells capable of dividing infinitely. A state also known as cancer.

[Xantalos]

Okay, giant philosophical discussion. One question for me; am I dying or dead in this hypothetical scenario? Because if I accepted the offer as I am now I'd actually end up worse off.