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Total Members Voted: 53

[Catsup]

This is... uh... I'm pretty sure most people would consider THIS sentiment insane, actually. The belief that the world ends when you die. I don't, personally, I'm just saying your statement is pretty weak considering the context. "I'm not mad! Everyone else is mad!"

its true though, when you stop existing nothing that goes on in the world will ever matter to you, you are NOT coming back, ever.

[Kansa]

You have to separate your concept of "body" and your concept of "mind". You're still clinging onto that 1-to-1 relation since you never thought about it like this before.

The thing is I have thought about this before, I was still a lurker then but I've read discussions like this on the forums before and it always comes down to the same thing for me. I see people's arguments on the side that argue that it would still be the same person and I agree with the logic behind them, it makes perfect sense that it still would be the same person and to the rest of the world it would be. The thing is I can't separate that fact, if I looked at an exact copy of me I could not read his thoughts, I would not be able to control its body. Even if it was thinking the same thoughts and making the same moves it would not be me deciding them it would be the clone. Which means to me it wouldn't be me, it makes perfect logical sense that it would be me but in my heart I would know it wasn't me.

[DeKaFu]

Funny thing. I view my clone as having less value to me than myself because they're not "me".

Okay, let's name three yourselves: Pre-clone original, post-clone original, and clone. How would these three different minds value the post-clone original compared to the clone?

I'm pretty sure they'd all value things exactly the same way I would.

So the clone would value himself less valuable than that other guy that looks like him, just because he was told he was a clone? He can't even confirm that he was told the truth. Would he change his mind if he was later told he was the original? Would the post-clone original then change his mind too and decree himself suddenly worthless? Those are the kind of things that you need to consider to ensure that your thoughts are logic-proof. All of what you are trying to defend here is based on gut feelings and instincts, you haven't thought it through with logic.

Yeah, that's pretty close to how it would shake out. It's messy. Which is why I don't intend to go around cloning myself.

Obviously, if it wasn't known for sure which was actually the original it would add a lot of uncertainty and stress to the situation, but wouldn't change the basis any such decisions would be based on.

If the clone was killed and I was later informed it had actually been the original, I'd be deeply disturbed by that fact. I would probably end up thinking of them as a person I was living my life for as a proxy, out of respect for their memory.

It's creepy just thinking about it.

[GlyphGryph]

Meanwhile, I believe in redundant systems and want as many of myself running around as possible.

[Max White]

After I escaped the room (No not 'if' I escaped, my survival is assured) were I to find out I was the clone, I would go back to my home and spend time with my friends and my family. I wouldn't be living the life of a proxy, I would be living my life.

[Catsup]

Meanwhile, I believe in redundant systems and want as many of myself running around as possible.

realistically though, those are all just copies with their own consciousnesses, the original you is gone for good, and it doesnt matter if your clones run the whole world, you are rotting buried beneath the earth and will never be able to see the world again.

[Graknorke]

Meanwhile, I believe in redundant systems and want as many of myself running around as possible.

realistically though, those are all just copies with their own consciousnesses, the original you is gone for good, and it doesnt matter if your clones run the whole world, you are rotting buried beneath the earth and will never be able to see the world again.

Again with this thing. He is not dead until personal memories of him are gone. Those copies ARE his mind. they experience things from his perspective, bar the change in the time after the copying process.

[MagmaMcFry]

If the clone was killed and I was later informed it had actually been the original, I'd be deeply disturbed by that fact. I would probably end up thinking of them as a person I was living my life for as a proxy, out of respect for their memory.

It's creepy just thinking about it.

But you don't know whether or not it's a fact. You will never know for sure whether or not you are the original, therefore it shouldn't matter to you. And the only non-redundant memories that have been permanently erased are the memories of the other view of the death selection discussion (irregardless of your originality). A body and five minutes. That is really nothing to spend the rest of your life deeply disturbed about.

[Catsup]

Again with this thing. He is not dead until personal memories of him are gone. Those copies ARE his mind. they experience things from his perspective, bar the change in the time after the copying process.

there is your memories, your experiences in life that define who you are and how you act.

there is the brain, which store these memories and which emulates your consciousness.

and there is consciousness, which is your individual awareness of the world.

losing your memories does not make you dead, you can make some new ones and keep living in the world. Losing your consciousness makes you DEAD since even if there are clones running around with your memories, they have a separate consciousness that is their own. They are NOT you.

[DeKaFu]

That said, if the clone was intentionally different from the original...

Let's say we discovered an alien planet full of cool unknown alien plants and animals, but there was no way human beings could survive on its surface, even for a second. If it was my life's greatest dream to live there and study those animals, I'd consider having my brain/mind/whatever cloned into a genetically modified body that was capable of surviving there, even if it meant my own death, because then at least a version of myself would be able to achieve the dream I never would otherwise. I'd feel like I was giving my successor a better future than I could have ever had, and because they'd want it exactly as much as I would, I could imagine exactly how happy it would make them.

The only thing holding me back would be that they'd have a hard time not feeling guilty about it.

Can you tell I've spent a lot of time thinking about this?

[Graknorke]

Again with this thing. He is not dead until personal memories of him are gone. Those copies ARE his mind. they experience things from his perspective, bar the change in the time after the copying process.

there is your memories, your experiences in life that define who you are and how you act.

there is the brain, which store these memories and which emulates your consciousness.

and there is consciousness, which is your individual awareness of the world.

losing your memories does not make you dead, you can make some new ones and keep living in the world. Losing your consciousness makes you DEAD since even if there are clones running around with your memories, they have a separate consciousness that is their own. They are NOT you.

Thing is that they have a memory of my conscious process. That is the legacy I leave behind, and that is the reason people even have a concept of their own personality.

EDIT:

That said, if the clone was intentionally different from the original...

Let's say we discovered an alien planet full of cool unknown alien plants and animals, but there was no way human beings could survive on its surface, even for a second. If it was my life's greatest dream to live there and study those animals, I'd consider having my brain/mind/whatever cloned into a genetically modified body that was capable of surviving there, even if it meant my own death, because then at least a version of myself would be able to achieve the dream I never would otherwise. I'd feel like I was giving my successor a better future than I could have ever had, and because they'd want it exactly as much as I would, I could imagine exactly how happy it would make them.

The only thing holding me back would be that they'd have a hard time not feeling guilty about it.

Can you tell I've spent a lot of time thinking about this?

Don't think about it in terms of "them" and "you". Both are you, pretty much. Both would have a memory of making the decision. Both would have a memory of the concerns over various problems. Well, they would if one of them wasn't immediately dead, but you get the point.

[Max White]

Hmm, would I also accept cloning if there was a change in my physical features?
No, I would not. I am emotionally attached to my body as much as I am to my survival. If the clones body was a replica of mine, or my body was a replica of the original, I would be happy, as I am the same person. However, even if I think in the same manor, if you change my physical capabilities, I am a different person...

Yes, I know this is irrational, my body is constantly being replaced with something new. Still...

[Graknorke]

Hmm, would I also accept cloning if there was a change in my physical features?
No, I would not. I am emotionally attached to my body as much as I am to my survival. If the clones body was a replica of mine, or my body was a replica of the original, I would be happy, as I am the same person. However, even if I think in the same manor, if you change my physical capabilities, I am a different person...

Yes, I know this is irrational, my body is constantly being replaced with something new. Still...

Oddly enough I'm pretty sure that this whole thing started in a discussion about replacing people with robots with mechanical brains.

[Max White]

Oddly enough I am slightly more ok with that... 
I think we have found a line where my rationality gives in to emotional impulse. Still, good to recognize that there is a line and where it is, many people can't.

[Catsup]

Thing is that they have a memory of my conscious process. That is the legacy I leave behind, and that is the reason people even have a concept of their own personality.

it doesnt matter if you have a legacy or not, cuz your dead...

it doesnt matter if your clone is a perfect copy of you with the same thought processes and personality, because your dead...

@thread, i thought this thread was about replacing your clones' brain with your own for as long as your brain can survive so you can achieve semi-immortality.