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Total Members Voted: 53

[Graknorke]

The mind is the system. The brain is the hardware.

incorrect. For computers and machinery different hardware can be used to run the same software, but each brain can only ever run 1 individual person's consciousness.

Not all of them. Early computers could do pretty much one thing to the inputs they get.
Indeed, current computers can only do one thing with the inputs they get. It's just that there's a lot of them all interacting with each other.

[DeKaFu]

You don't need a soul. It's the difference between a computer and a computer program. You can have a distributed computer program that can keep running if all of it's original hardware has been replaced. Most people would say it's still the same program, even if all the original computers are in a scrapheap somewhere.

Hell, people say it's still the same program if you make a hundred copies of it and run them on different machines, and that destroying one of the machines doesn't destroy the program! But it's probably better to think of the distributed computer program here, since that's really what your mind is. Hundreds upon hundreds of thousands upon thousands of tiny computers, all working together to run the program that is YOU, and which are often destroyed and replaced, individually, without us saying that it means you no longer exist or that you died.

The mind is the system. The brain is the hardware.

The mind is a particular instance of a running program on a computer. The brain is the hardware that program is running on. If you throw the computer out the window and it smashes, that instance of the program is permanently obliterated. Running a different copy on a different computer does nothing for the original instance, though it may produce the same results the original would have.

Calling multiple copies of the same program the same program is an abstraction. They each occupy different physical spaces in various storage mediums and can be destroyed and created independently.

Also your example of a distributed program running on multiple computers... in this metaphor translates into a single mind shared between multiple brains, ala a shared psychic hive-mind. In that case, I agree that killing one brain would not destroy the mind, but that's not what we're discussing here.

[GlyphGryph]

The mind is the system. The brain is the hardware.

incorrect. For computers and machinery different hardware can be used to run the same software, but each brain can only ever run 1 individual person's consciousness.

Your argument doesn't actually relate to your assertion, unfortunately. I never claimed that a brain could ever run more than one persons consciousness (although, one could say we run several programs. Human minds are generally considered to be consensus systems, so we're actually running several individual subroutines with emergent results). Or even that one individuals consciousness could run on an entirely different brain (at least not as part of that statement). Yes, a human's mind and brain are incredibly tightly coupled, but being tightly coupled does not make them the same thing.

your initial claim seemed pretty diametrically opposed to this one

can you explain what you thought my original claim was?

I'd rather continue our consensus building exercise, to be honest. Different conclusions don't mean much if we don't know where they diverge, and misunderstandings are much harder when we understand where we share common ground. If you want, we can fast forward a couple steps, though.

[Graknorke]

You don't need a soul. It's the difference between a computer and a computer program. You can have a distributed computer program that can keep running if all of it's original hardware has been replaced. Most people would say it's still the same program, even if all the original computers are in a scrapheap somewhere.

Hell, people say it's still the same program if you make a hundred copies of it and run them on different machines, and that destroying one of the machines doesn't destroy the program! But it's probably better to think of the distributed computer program here, since that's really what your mind is. Hundreds upon hundreds of thousands upon thousands of tiny computers, all working together to run the program that is YOU, and which are often destroyed and replaced, individually, without us saying that it means you no longer exist or that you died.

The mind is the system. The brain is the hardware.

The mind is a particular instance of a running program on a computer. The brain is the hardware that program is running on. If you throw the computer out the window and it smashes, that instance of the program is permanently obliterated. Running a different copy on a different computer does nothing for the original instance, though it may produce the same results the original would have.

Calling multiple copies of the same program the same program is an abstraction. They each occupy different physical spaces in various storage mediums and can be destroyed and created independently.

Also your example of a distributed program running on multiple computers... in this metaphor translates into a single mind shared between multiple brains, ala a shared psychic hive-mind. In that case, I agree that killing one brain would not destroy the mind, but that's not what we're discussing here.

But the fact that they produce the same result means that they are the same. If the first instance were to send all of its current data to the other computer just before it was destroyed. There is no difference between leaving the program running and throwing it out of the window in that instance. At least, as far as the program is concerned.

[GlyphGryph]

Also your example of a distributed program running on multiple computers... in this metaphor translates into a single mind shared between multiple brains, ala a shared psychic hive-mind. In that case, I agree that killing one brain would not destroy the mind, but that's not what we're discussing here.

If you don't think that's what we're discussing, then we have a pretty serious disconnect, and that's why I would really prefer if we work through my identity example methodologically. Do you have any complaints about my process and conclusions for the good ship S.S.Teddy so far?

[MagmaMcFry]

Intermission: I added a poll.

[Catsup]

Yes, a human's mind and brain are incredibly tightly coupled, but being tightly coupled does not make them the same thing.

they are the same thing, if you know about diseases of the brain from old age or other mental illnesses that are hereditary then you'll know physical damage to the brain causes ppl to lose their minds, their memories, and their consciousness.

I'd rather continue our consensus building exercise, to be honest. Different conclusions don't mean much if we don't know where they diverge, and misunderstandings are much harder when we understand where we share common ground. If you want, we can fast forward a couple steps, though.

you should probly fast forward.

[GlyphGryph]

Okay, so, Catsup, let us fast forward to step 10.

Step 10: Our damaged and repaired ship and modified ship now looks like this:

The S.S.Teddy:
 ======o
= o o   :-,
| o o   :-`
| =====o
| =====o
| o o  :-,
= o o  :-`
 ======o

Pile of Stuff:
====

Is it still the S.S.Teddy? Is it still the same ship we've been talking about this whole time? (I expect the answer to be yes to this, but I just want to make sure as the next step is most likely to be contentious)

[Catsup]

Is it still the S.S.Teddy? Is it still the same ship we've been talking about this whole time? (I expect the answer to be yes to this, but I just want to make sure as the next step is most likely to be contentious)

yes, but why is the pile of stuff so small?

[Kansa]

For the poll I can't really see any reason to destroy the first body after the clone has been made

[GlyphGryph]

That's what I've been using to repair the ship. Notice that in the current version and the original version, I'm still using (roughly, thanks to limitations of the ascii medium. An 8 simply represents two o o vertically aligned next to each other, for example) all the same characters at each step. The original pile of spare materials existed solely to provide for the repairs.

they are the same thing, if you know about diseases of the brain from old age or other mental illnesses that are hereditary then you'll know physical damage to the brain causes ppl to lose their minds, their memories, and their consciousness.

Physical damage to hard disks can cause program failures as well. Losing a server, or having a server behave improperly, can't certainly damage the function of a distributed program. Again, that's a side effect of their relations, but it does not mean that they are identical. Only that they are coupled.

[MagmaMcFry]

For the poll I can't really see any reason to destroy the first body after the clone has been made

Dude, there's also no reason to give the clone $10. It's just a hypothetical scenario analogous to what this discussion seems to be about.

[Catsup]

Again, that's a side effect of their relations, but it does not mean that they are identical. Only that they are coupled.

yes, but coupled is such a way that they may as well be the same thing.

[Graknorke]

In regards to the poll, when you say perfect, is that as in physically perfect with an identical mind?

[GlyphGryph]

Again, that's a side effect of their relations, but it does not mean that they are identical. Only that they are coupled.

yes, but coupled is such a way that they may as well be the same thing.

This much I'll give you. but it is not a matter of semantics that I stress the importance of the difference between "IS the same thing" and "may as well be the same thing". As someone who has to deal with the fallout of that sort of conflation professionally, it's a vitally important point. Because it turns out that things that "may as well be the same thing" but are actually the same thing can do something very special - they can diverge.

* GlyphGryph shudders.

It's why in programming it's often important to check not only that objects are the same (as in, may as well be the same thing, is 2 equal to 2? sort of thing, represented usually by the == symbol) but if they are /identical/ (is THIS 2 equal to THAT 2, usually represented by the === symbol).