Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

Yes

10 (17.9%)

No

46 (82.1%)

Total Members Voted: 53

[GlyphGryph]

Anyway, continuing on. Step 11. We have ANOTHER accident (damn it!) and conduct the repairs as we've been doing so far.

The S.S.Teddy:
=======o
| o o   :-,
| o o   :-`
=======o
=======o
| o o   :-,
| o o   :-`
=======o

Pile of Stuff:
empty

Note that we've gone through our entire pile of spares at this point, so we have twice the starting mass and two times as many of each components as when we started. Is it still the same ship?

Edit: Whoops, sorry for the double post.

[MagmaMcFry]

In regards to the poll, when you say perfect, is that as in physically perfect with an identical mind?

The copy has the exact same configuration of particles as the original. According to particle physics and neurobiology, this constitutes a perfect copy of the original's thoughts and memories.

[Graknorke]

In regards to the poll, when you say perfect, is that as in physically perfect with an identical mind?

The copy has the exact same configuration of particles as the original. According to particle physics and neurobiology, this constitutes a perfect copy of the original's thoughts and memories.

Oh, okay then.
No, I wouldn't. The stress wouldn't be worth $10. I know that logically I should be fine with it, but panic doesn't listen to reason.

[Catsup]

Because it turns out that things that "may as well be the same thing" but are actually the same thing can do something very special - they can diverge.

no they cannot diverge, because their difference is that one is a tangible physical reality and the other one is not. To be able to diverge they must be able to change independently of each other, and the mind and the brain are not able to do this under any circumstance.

[DeKaFu]

I'd like to point out that whether the copy ends up different than the original is completely meaningless to the point of view I'm defending. In fact, as I suggested on the first page, the fact that the copy could easily be made different in key ways is the only reason I'd ever consider doing it.

I'm pretty sure the divergence here is that you see a mind as something abstract to be preserved, whereas I don't. I don't care about my memories and personality either surviving or being consigned to oblivion*, what I care about is the conscious self that is staring out of my eyeballs right now being able to continue doing so. If I'm dead, having a 100% identical copy with all my hopes and dreams and memories will never, ever achieve that.

*Well, obviously I do, but it's not the actual concern I have with this process.

[GlyphGryph]

Catsup, Dekafu, is it the same ship?

[Catsup]

Note that we've gone through our entire pile of spares at this point, so we have twice the starting mass and two times as many of each components as when we started. Is it still the same ship?

the second ship is no longer the same ship as the original, it is a split off individual entity, perhaps a child, that was borne off the first ship at the time of the splitting.

it could be said that they are identical in terms of ships because the only function of a ship is to function as a ship.

minds do not work like this, they are constantly updated on their own, and even if you created a exact replica of a brain from the original it would immediately cease to be a exact replica as soon as it starts to update on its own, independently of the original.

[GlyphGryph]

the second ship is no longer the same ship as the original, it is a split off individual entity, perhaps a child, that was borne off the first ship at the time of the splitting.

What is this "second ship" you're talking about? Just a few seconds ago you were saying it was the same ship, but one slight repair/modification job later and suddenly it's not anymore, and 49% of what was the ship a few moments ago no longer is?

[fivex]

Note that we've gone through our entire pile of spares at this point, so we have twice the starting mass and two times as many of each components as when we started. Is it still the same ship?

the second ship is no longer the same ship as the original, it is a split off individual entity, perhaps a child, that was borne off the first ship at the time of the splitting.

But which is the first ship?

[MagmaMcFry]

GlyphGryph, your logic has one fatal flaw, namely that you don't account for continuous functionality. For you see, to properly extend the analogy, the ships have to work continuously during the whole process, all the while without changing expected behaviour, which would generally not work.

Consider this circuit diagram. How would you continuously expand it into two circuit diagrams so that its functionality remains the same the whole time?

[DeKaFu]

I'd say it's the same ship, but yes, it's all rather academic because the ship doesn't have a mind to preserve.
Scratch that, I totally missed the last one and now don't know what you're getting at.

I do think that something like gradually replacing bits of brain with artificial brain would likely be the best way to continue the illusion of unbroken consciousness we call "being alive". Though I have trouble imagining a system for that which is perfect enough to not induce fundemental changes in the mind in the process...if keeping the personality, etc. the same isn't the goal, that would be acceptable.

This is, however, completely different than the thing I was arguing against.

[Catsup]

What is this "second ship" you're talking about? Just a few seconds ago you were saying it was the same ship, but one slight repair/modification job later and suddenly it's not anymore, and 49% of what was the ship a few moments ago no longer is?

a few moments ago it was 1 functional ship that looked like 2 smaller ships, but connected in such a way taht they are still only 1 ship, and can only function as 1 ship.

after the recent change they can only function as 2 ships instead of 1 ship, so the second one that can provide shipping function independently of the first one is named "ship #2"


this does not work exactly the same was for minds, because minds may start to form from the physical splitting and changing of brain tissue much earlier, and before the final split. 2 consciousnesses independent of each other will form in the same brain if you were to do this with a brain, but never in the same tissue areas (kinda like a chimera). Picture it like an ettin from dwarf fortress, both heads can control the body but each one evaluates the situation differently and is their own person.

[GlyphGryph]

GlyphGryph, your logic has one fatal flaw, namely that you don't account for continuous functionality. For you see, to properly extend the analogy, the ships have to work continuously during the whole process, all the while without changing expected behaviour, which would generally not work.

Luckily we are talking about identity, minds, and continuity, not preservation of a functional match. If we were, the ship would have been different immediately after suffering the initial damage. If we were you would die a multitude of deaths every moment. You are the first to argue this as a requirement - can you seek to explain how it would make any sense as one?

a few moments ago it was 1 functional ship that looked like 2 smaller ships, but connected in such a way taht they are still only 1 ship, and can only function as 1 ship.
after the recent change they can only function as 2 ships instead of 1 ship, so the second one that can provide shipping function independently of the first one is named "ship #2"

I still don't know what you mean by the "first" ship and the "second" ship. Are you saying that the S.S.Teddy no longer exists at this point? That it was destroyed?

What if they were still bound together at this point by rope, so that they still functioned as one ship?

[Catsup]

I still don't know what you mean by the "first" ship and the "second" ship. Are you saying that the S.S.Teddy no longer exists at this point? That it was destroyed?

What if they were still bound together at this point by rope, so that they still functioned as one ship?

if they are bounded together with rope so they can only function as 1 ship, then that is only 1 ship. Otherwise they are now 2 separate ships since they can function independently of each other.

first and second ship may be a bad way to refer to this, because its not possible to tell which one is exactly the original and which one was the split off. It would depend on how much each new ship has in material, that composed the original SS teddy. But one of them is definitely the original, and one of them the offspring, that is for certain.

the SS teddy definitely exists, because both ships can provide shipping function, and one of them is definitely the original.

[GlyphGryph]

You are certainly STATING that. I get the strong feeling that you want it to be true. But you aren't actually providing an argument beyond that.

They both have exactly the same number of components from the first panel S.S.Teddy. Just a couple posts ago you said every single component up there was a component of the S.S.Teddy. How can you say that one of the subships is the 'original', when they are both identical, with identical but mirrored histories of how they were created, both composed 100% of S.S.Teddy pieces...

But we've stepped back, and tied them together. You say they are now once more the S.S.Teddy. Let's work from here. For convenience we'll call the two halves of the S.S.Teddy Top and Bottom. Does that work for you? Right now, we have the S.S.Teddy, and the S.S.Teddy is composed of two components, both identical to the single component it had several posts ago, which we'll call Past. So we can agree that Top, Bottom, and Past are all different, but that the S.S.Teddy is still, in fact, the S.S.Teddy, right?