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[RAM]

Exothermy might be easier if we started with a lizard velociraptor lizard-with-velociraptor-features and turned it into a colonist. Which is a plan that I am willing to support...

P.S.

Sorry for comparing you guys to brothel owners, just an expression. 

Remember! Everything that your read on the internet is unerringly fact and has been reviewed by peers...

[GreatWyrmGold]

No, it wouldn't be. Do you have any idea how tough it would be to get a lizard, or even an archosaur, to sentient levels of intelligence? If I had to choose a creature to uplift, it would be a cephalopod, large mammal, or maybe one of the smarter birds, but lizards are NOT made for intelligence.

Ectothermy isn't actually that hard. Just stop the thermoregulation, and help make the proteins be more temperature-resistant, perhaps by borrowing lizard ones.


Also, raptors were endotherms. JSYK.

[Kaferian]

Exothermy-snip-

Ectothermy. Unless you're really just talking about the releasing of heat.

FAKEEDIT: Dang ninja.

[GreatWyrmGold]

(I heard what he meant.)

[RAM]

Yes, I had to cross out velociraptors, which made me very sad...

[GrizzlyAdamz]

I like the plant idea. In addition to providing extra energy & oxygen, it also provides another outlet for heat and possibly portable shade, depending on just how exactly we design it. Shoot, we could use it to handle all kinds of things, (metabolism stuff), since we're designing it.

Also, we'll have to do something about the pressure. If we don't increase inhaled-gas pressure, or decrease blood pressure, we won't be able to respirate- the gases won't dissolve properly, (particularly CO₂).

On Heat regulation- see the plant. I'm more partial to shrinking size than ectothermy. Also: just saying 'increase mean body temperature, engineer replacement proteins' might work out just fine- it's a forum game after all. Stealing proteins would work too, but in terms of forum game turns it'd take the same amount of effort, 'adapt lizard enzymes to work in our creature' is just as many commands as the previous one.

Also: more RBCs, better hemoglobin. We'd need a better heart to pump the higher-viscousity blood, or we'll have heart problems at age 40.

Additional ideas:
Steal from the avatar aliens and ganymeans from (minervan experiment?).
Bones w/ carbon fiber.
Internal organs are suspended from modified rib structure, instead of sitting in a pile.
Just gonna throw out there- secondary circulatory system? Useful for anything?

Additional questions:
What's the weather like on this planet?

[GreatWyrmGold]

I like the plant idea. In addition to providing extra energy & oxygen, it also provides another outlet for heat and possibly portable shade, depending on just how exactly we design it. Shoot, we could use it to handle all kinds of things, (metabolism stuff), since we're designing it.

I'd be interested to hear how...

Also, we'll have to do something about the pressure. If we don't increase inhaled-gas pressure, or decrease blood pressure, we won't be able to respirate- the gases won't dissolve properly, (particularly CO₂).

What do birds that fly at high altitudes do?

I'm more partial to shrinking size than ectothermy.

Why? Shrinking has a ton of problems with it, from brain size to senses.

Also: just saying 'increase mean body temperature, engineer replacement proteins' might work out just fine- it's a forum game after all. Stealing proteins would work too, but in terms of forum game turns it'd take the same amount of effort, 'adapt lizard enzymes to work in our creature' is just as many commands as the previous one.

Well, firstly, that assumes that the GM is bending realism; secondly, it assumes that we'd rather be lazy than debate biology. And I'd imagine that for many of us here, debating the biology is half the fun.
*raises hand*

Additional ideas:
Steal from the avatar aliens and ganymeans from (minervan experiment?).

Huh?

Bones w/ carbon fiber.

Show me one example of organic carbon fibers.

Internal organs are suspended from modified rib structure, instead of sitting in a pile.

Hm...

Just gonna throw out there- secondary circulatory system? Useful for anything?

Huh? There's already two circulatory systems, more if you count cardiac/hepatic/renal/etc circulation separately.

[GrizzlyAdamz]

Nope, meant a secondary blood circulatory system. You & your lymphatics. Was just brainstorming.

We're going to have to bend realism at some point. Unless you want to code in the genetics yourself. Or as a more relatable example, do we want to go over the suite of avian respiratory adaptations or just say 'bird lungs'?

Here, I only read the summary on this one and I read a bit of this. Looks like they have different structures for their lungs, muscles, brains, and hemoglobin. So it looks like they kinda have a lot of adaptation going. But really, I'd say this depends on what the definition is of 75% minimum survivability- is this 75% ATM or 75% below he point where we can no longer adapt, and die in short order?

Heat loss: huh, just read in the bird article- our heat problem will be exaserbated by the thin air- less conduction.
It also doesn't help shield us against the sun.

Why? Shrinking has a ton of problems with it, from brain size to senses.

Lies and slander! (links?)

I'd be interested to hear how...

Well, let's have it incorporate a thin layer of dead broadleaves to cover most of our body, (kinda like feathers, but less freakish. Reminded of this, but with more death.). Let's have it tie into our circulatory system directly- we can lose heat through the living, photo-synthetic petals & the like (maybe, might be counter-productive though, in a shade-less environment we'll just absorb more solar energy(heat)). I'm no expert, but plant biology is all kinds of different, and if anyone knows their stuff they could probably come up with a couple uses.

Was explaining what I was going to say- I took the carbon fibers idea from Avatar, and the ribcage/circulatory from a series by hogan.

Show me one example of organic carbon fibers.

Hey! Just because it doesn't currently exist doesn't mean it couldn't! Don't be such a party pooper.

Again, what's the weather like?

[GreatWyrmGold]

We're going to have to bend realism at some point. Unless you want to code in the genetics yourself. Or as a more relatable example, do we want to go over the suite of avian respiratory adaptations or just say 'bird lungs'?

That's not what I was saying.
There's a difference between "decide the details but leave the last ones out" and "who cares about realism?"

Why? Shrinking has a ton of problems with it, from brain size to senses.

Lies and slander! (links?)

For which part? I could also explain it to you.

Was explaining what I was going to say- I took the carbon fibers idea from Avatar, and the ribcage/circulatory from a series by hogan.

Yes, because Avatar was such a pinnacle of scientific realism.
And I didn't have any opposition to the ribs thing.

Show me one example of organic carbon fibers.

Hey! Just because it doesn't currently exist doesn't mean it couldn't! Don't be such a party pooper.

That's like asking the Wright brothers to design a space shuttle. Or maybe Newton. We need something to base it off of; we can't just poke a gene in there to make the body do entirely new things.

[GrizzlyAdamz]

Are you implying that it's impossible to modify or create enzymes that aren't denatured at (what was it? 350c?)? Because that appears to be what you're saying is completely unrealistic.

Both. Explaining is good but links are best.

You expressed confusion over my line,
"Steal from the avatar aliens & gannymeans from (minervan experiment?)."

I contend that incorporating carbon fiber into our bones is perfectly feasible with advanced genetic manipulation, and assuming that the rule of awesome is in effect I challenge you to explain why it isn't.

Who says? Maybe in this hyper advanced society they've already discover the Avatar carbon fiber gene. And again, I contend it's not impossible. Therefore it's possible. Therefore it might be worth a try in a forum game where we don't have to worry about actually writing the code ourselves.

[RAM]

I want to keep it simple to get it done faster and inherit more coinage. I would not incorporate blood circulation through a symbiont. It is too much of a risk of injury unless you also incorporate sensory and reflexive actions, and incorporating all that is just going to be a pain... The tree would provide shade, and depending upon its chemical reactions it might provide chemical cooling. One issue with a symbiotic body-covering is getting it to behave, you would expect occasional mutation to result in the restraining measures to fail and someone to be suffocated under their own best friend...

[GreatWyrmGold]

Are you implying that it's impossible to modify or create enzymes that aren't denatured at (what was it? 350c?)? Because that appears to be what you're saying is completely unrealistic.

I don't get where I would have said that.

Both. Explaining is good but links are best.

Well, I'm not good enough at link-fu to link paper books, so I'll just explain.
Brain size: Should be obvious. Smaller means smaller head. To a point, we can just keep more neotenic proportions, but once we get shorter than a meter or so we'll have issues.
Coordination: Depending on how much of this is learned and how much is instinctual (we really don't know), the much smaller mass and size would screw up coordination. Just to provide scale: They could probably jump as far as normal humans. Not proportionately as far, as far. Oh, yeah, the nerve signals are going a lot faster. If there's an instinctual component, the small people are going to be clumsy.
Senses: Sight would be negatively affected due to smaller pupils. Our pupils are massively larger than visible waves of light, so interference from the edges of the pupil would be minimal, but that would get more severe if we made the pupils smaller. As for hearing, the eardrum's reduction in size would change sounds roughly the same as changes in the voice box would change the voice. I don't remember how small it was, but one book I read suggested that it would render the small guy effectively blind, deaf, and dumb.
General: Proportions would need to be adjusted across the board, most likely.
Those come to mind first.

I contend that incorporating carbon fiber into our bones is perfectly feasible with advanced genetic manipulation, and assuming that the rule of awesome is in effect I challenge you to explain why it isn't.

Assuming it is, there's no point to this argument.
Assuming it's not, how would the carbon fiber even be produced?

Who says? Maybe in this hyper advanced society they've already discover the Avatar carbon fiber gene. And again, I contend it's not impossible. Therefore it's possible. Therefore it might be worth a try in a forum game where we don't have to worry about actually writing the code ourselves.

And maybe they've made unicorns that poop puppies.
More seriously, that same argument could be made for anything. Maybe it's technically possible for us to make that, but it sure ain't happening because we don't know how. You're asking a monkey to make a copy of Shakespeare's works without having read one.

[RAM]

This is set in the future, it stands to reason that a certain amount of methodology exists that does not exist in 2012.

If I were going to biologically create carbon fibres then I would probably have proteins that bond to a carbon, bond carbon-first onto a long carbon chain, and then release the carbon and let someone else take a turn. This would probably require multiple proteins acting on concert in a favourable medium. Bones do more than just provide structure, so you would be looking at the carbon-fibre being used as reinforcement rather than the primary substance. Getting the fibres to bond to the bones in an efficient fashion would provide further difficulties. And the manufacturing process would likely require significant space and energy. Energy seems to be in short supply given the current fauna, although it seems reasonable to expect that there is abundant sunlight. Space on the other hand would be a problem, as you are likely going to want to produce the fibres inside the substance of the bone, as the inherent fragility of something with a micro-scale width and macro-scale length would preclude transport of the fibres, and then there is issue of getting the fibres effectively implanted into the bone if they are not manufactured there.
 I am all in favour of pursuing carbon-fibre bones, and carbon-fibre sinews and carbon-fibre, diamond-studded skin and whatever else, but I don't think it would be time-efficient for this project. Although we could look into buying it. What sort of biological features are for sale? Oh, right, we are sort of broke(As far as buying use of major design patents is concerned) until we get this job done...

Oh! Hey! I want wings! Gliding could be a great way to travel long-distances. Although the gravity could be an issue, it would depend on the weather, enough convection and it might be viable...

[GreatWyrmGold]

This is set in the future, it stands to reason that a certain amount of methodology exists that does not exist in 2012.

Okay, a chimpanzee trying to rewrite Shakespeare.

If I were going to biologically create carbon fibres then I would probably have proteins that bond to a carbon, bond carbon-first onto a long carbon chain, and then release the carbon and let someone else take a turn. This would probably require multiple proteins acting on concert in a favourable medium.

I'm a little doubtful about this, especially due to lack of biological precedent. Life doesn't tend to work in units smaller than amino acids, certainly not as small and reactive as lone carbon atoms.

Bones do more than just provide structure, so you would be looking at the carbon-fibre being used as reinforcement rather than the primary substance.

Well, duh.

Getting the fibres to bond to the bones in an efficient fashion would provide further difficulties. And the manufacturing process would likely require significant space and energy. Energy seems to be in short supply given the current fauna, although it seems reasonable to expect that there is abundant sunlight. Space on the other hand would be a problem, as you are likely going to want to produce the fibres inside the substance of the bone, as the inherent fragility of something with a micro-scale width and macro-scale length would preclude transport of the fibres, and then there is issue of getting the fibres effectively implanted into the bone if they are not manufactured there.

Quite true problems.

I am all in favour of pursuing carbon-fibre bones, and carbon-fibre sinews and carbon-fibre, diamond-studded skin and whatever else, but I don't think it would be time-efficient for this project. Although we could look into buying it. What sort of biological features are for sale? Oh, right, we are sort of broke(As far as buying use of major design patents is concerned) until we get this job done...

I dunno. While it would rock if we could do all that, I don't think we can.

Oh! Hey! I want wings! Gliding could be a great way to travel long-distances. Although the gravity could be an issue, it would depend on the weather, enough convection and it might be viable...

Yeah, gravity's a big issue. That and size. Just use airplanes or automobiles.

[Littleloki]

OK wow I made an account just to get in on this game. So here goes.

On the Topic of Carbon fiber bones, I could be theoretically possible for the body to burn off a certain amount of non-carbon materials and create enough raw carbon in order to properly lace the bone structure and strengthen system. However I see a problem that has yet to be brought up, The problem that is Growth, if we assume that the carbon fiber is in place since birth as the life form breeds and it's young grow up, the carbon fiber in it's bones could not grow with it as the carbon is a non organic feature and could not either add to itself and get bigger or repair itself in case of damage.

On another note, are we supposed to be modifying Humans or are we allowed to start with a different life form so long as it can colonize?