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Author Topic: A Game of Thrones: Every time somebody uses the spoiler tags take a shot.  (Read 205752 times)

Sheb

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Well, if they still horses... What's the distance between Horn Hill and Oldtown?
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Kot

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Inb4 next episode first scene will be Tarly beheading Sam for being a little shit.
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Werdna

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Well, if they still horses... What's the distance between Horn Hill and Oldtown?

~200 miles down the Rose Road, according to amapoficeandfire, assuming they don't off-road it.  C'mon, it's Sam, Gilly, and a baby, is there a least horse-worthy set of characters?  Even if they off-road it, which is in their skill-set, it'd be no small thing to outwit dogs and hunters on Tarly's own lands.  One of the smartest characters in the book is nonchalantly pulling the thing off the rack like he goes out for a stroll with it every morning.  It's just more teleporting handwaving.
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Leafsnail

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And so stupid, I hate when they cut-scene to hand-wave away the logical repercussions.  Seriously, how does Tarly not send out riders to get it back?  Are we supposed to believe Sam, Gilly and a baby can outride them?
It's too bad that was the last episode ever of Game of Thrones. We will never learn the answer to this question.
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Mephansteras

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Seriously. I know the show has done some stupid stuff, but it seems like you guys are going out of your way to find something to nitpick about. Just because they didn't resolve that this episode doesn't mean they are going to ignore the repercussions of his actions.
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Loud Whispers

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It's a risky move for sure but I'm not convinced his dad will launch a military campaign just because his son took a sword that was his by birthright. I imagine there will be some conflict though.
The Lannisters sent a whole military expedition to Valyria to retrieve their lost Valyrian sword, no survivors returned. Randyll Tarly will also not need to launch a military campaign, as he is a General of the Reach's military, and Sam is currently in the Reach and his destination still in the Reach - which his father knows where he's going. For 500 years that sword has been in his family and Tarly will not let this slide.
This was a very poor life choice on Sam's part. Sam's usually not this stupid too, so it remains to see how this unfolds. Would be rather anticlimactic to have Sam be killed over this sword and the Wall get bumrushed by an enemy that cannot be stopped with conventional warfare. It's ok though, Bran will save them.

If I wanted to create a new weapon against the White Walkers I would definitely start by examining existing weapons that work. Maybe it only needs to be 1% Valyrian to work or maybe you just need a tip, so you could reforge that one largely ornamental blade into hundreds of effective weapons.
Sam is a scholar, not an alchemist - they already had obsidian and valyrian steel at the Wall, what they didn't have was access to the great archives of Oldtown which is basically their library of Alexandria. In short, if the kryptonite seckrit is not there, it's lost to time. Think back to season 1 where Maester Lewin (Luwin? Fucking GRRM spellings ;D), shows Bran his valyrian steel chainlink, showing he has studied magic. He also adds that the maesters of Oldtown now consider that link to be rather useless study of myths and superstition, but all the same they are the only people in the world besides maybe the alchemists who have (and the maesters have the largest) collection of the oldest myths, scrolls, texts and so on - with scholars dedicated to their study. If studying Valyrian steel with Sam's skillset would yield results, then he would take Longclaw or any of their obsidian weapons from Jon. When Stannis and Sam talk in Season 5 they talk of a few things (including Sam's father), but most importantly they talk of white walkers, specifically killing them. Stannis asks Sam how he killed the white walkers, Sam says with dragonglass. Stannis, having lived on Dragonstone (a whole island made out of dragonglass) is the closest thing to an obsidian expert they have at the wall and asks Sam why dragonglass killed the white walker.
Sam says he doesn't know why it works, only that it does - and that in the manuscripts he studied, the children of the forest were said to have hunted with dragonglass weapons.

To quote:
Sam: 'I've seen it your grace.'
Stannis: 'Seen what (m8)'
Sam: 'The army of the dead. And when they come-'
Stannis: '-We have to know how to fight them. Keep reading Samwell Tarly.'
From Season 5 episode 5. Also quite adorable is that in this scene, you can see Sam feeling self conscious about not being a soldier like his father - but how he looks after Stannis validates his value as a reader is inspiring. You can see it means a lot to Sam, to have this King who is not his friend validate him for his talent where his father would not. Story telling!

I digress, because after Sam realizes his value is in finding out how to kill the White Walkers, he reads through all the archives of Castle Black and runs out of material to read - at which point he goes to Jon and says he needs to go to Oldtown to access their archives and find out everything they know of the white walkers and the children of the forest. As it stands they don't know what makes Valyrian steel or Obsidian so special, they don't know how the White Walkers control winter or the dead, how they will interact with the Wall, how they reproduce, how they communicate e.t.c. - every single man at the wall could have a Valyrian steel greatsword, and not knowing how to fight the White Walkers would mean nothing, they will lose. This is why Jon ultimately authorizes Sam's journey south - they need to know their enemy.

Take your idea for example - put yourself in Sam's shoes. He's already examined all of their weapons that have been proven to kill white walkers, namely Valyrian steel and dragonglass. Let's assume Sam's also starting to believe that the Valyrians had real magic and the Children of the Forest and their magic were both real (after having seen the armies of the dead walk, anything is possible). He doesn't know if dragonglass sourced from Dragonstone will have the same effect as the Dragonglass from the Fist of the First Men, enchanted by the COTF. He doesn't know if melting and reforging Longclaw or even Heartsbane into a hundred arrowheads will not result in breaking whatever magic the Valryians have cast on it, a conundrum made even worse since the COTF just became extinct this season and the method of producing Valyrian steel has been lost for a looooong time, and the people who have the knowledge to reforge Valyrian steel are a prized minority - it took Tywin Lannister, the most powerful man in Westeros to reforge Ice into Widow's Bane and Oathkeeper. Even then he had to get his blacksmith from far away in Essos, being perhaps one of three or so people alive still capable of reforging Valyrian steel.

The wall is 300 miles wide by source standards, 500 miles by Sam's show estimates and only 3 of the 19 castles are manned. Both the wildlings that made it through the wall or out of hardhome are greatly worn down, with most of their fighters having died against the Night's Watch, Stannis or the White Walkers. The Night's Watch at this point is a skeleton crew. Stannis's men are dead or deserted. The White Walkers numbers are unknown, as all rangings have ceased due to the Night's Watch having no manpower to do so, the gate having been frozen shut and the last ranging resulting in their force being eaten by dead people or mucked about by legends from fookin Jin Alley. Of the powers known to the Night's Watch and the Wildlings at the wall, seeming invincibility to anything but Valyrian steel and dragonglass, assuming this weakness is a universal property to the material and not the enchantment - with the enchantment being specific to the White Walker and not the material (so white walkers are weak to dragonglass because dragonglass was used to make the first white walker, not that the daggers found are uniquely enchanted. Valyrian steel is the opposite, being straight up magic - never needing sharpening, cutting through most other metals and fucking up white walkers like it's NHS budget).
They don't know why or the specifics, those answers being in Oldtown. They know the dead have a tendency to not stay dead for long unless you burn them, but they don't know why this happens - for example the body they brought to the south of the wall coming to life on its own, the Wildlings wanting to burn Jon's corpse, and the Night King raising the casualties at hardhome. No one at the Wall has seen enough or understands anything about the process of reanimation, only that you should burn all corpses just in case. Jon has witnessed the White Walkers not realizing that they are vulnerable to Valyrian steel - it comes as a shock when Jon kills the White Walker where the Thenn Chieftain's greataxe shatters, but now they've learned this weakness about themself too. They know the White Walkers have a seeming ability to control the weather itself, and they know Winter is coming - if there is a connection they don't know for sure, and they don't know whether when winter comes and all the people who have died of starvation or cold in the south or have died from battle... Are going to stay dead. They also know that the wights are especially weak to fire but otherwise cannot be killed like regular people, but the White Walkers seem to shrug off fire like it's nothing. They also don't have wildfire to play with, but an educated guess is since wildfire is magic greek fire, it would probably burninate the shit out of them. Shame the Night's Watch has no knowledge of Wildfire - Maybe Davos may inform them? Possible. No certainties, because that knowledge is in Oldtown.

The fable about ice spiders is probably going to be just a fable because CGI budget yo, but the rest is confirmed to the people at the wall.
Then there's the issue of the Wall itself and how it interacts with the White Walkers. As it stands the Night's Watch could not hold off the Wildlings, logically this raises the question of why the White Walkers haven't already attacked the Wall with their army of the great dead and won already. All they know is that the White Walkers have been marching south since season 1, have been systematically exterminating and reanimating the wildlings and night's watch people north of the wall - and that the Wall was originally built not to keep the wildlings out, but was built by the first men and the COTF to keep the White Walkers out. They need to know what mechanisms of magic dickery are available in the Wall to keep the White Walkers out or they're stuck trying to fight conventionally against an enemy that cannot be defeated in conventional combat with forces so understrength they couldn't even hold off a conventional enemy.

So it seems very out of character for Sam, having just discovered his true calling as a scholar and not a soldier - to jeopardize the safety of the world in order to play soldier and risk completely undoing his own well-thought out plan. This does seem like a decision made to heighten the stakes since otherwise Sam would be reasonable and have just secured a safe home and noble education for his family, but it is one quite out of character for Sam and the only way this will make sense if Randyl Tarly similarly acts out of character.

Rather interesting here is that there are two people who are studying the weaknesses of the White Walkers. Well, only one is, the other is faffing about with Daddy issues and showing off in front of his girlfriend. Whilst Sam goes south to Oldtown, Bran went north. Sam has a conversation with Jojen, the greenseer Reed. Jojen begins telling Sam that even South of the Wall is not safe from the White Walkers, and the Night's Watch can't stop them and not even all the Kings of Westeros and their armies combined can stop them. Bran has to go north to find out how to defeat the White Walkers - and Sam gives Bran's crew the dragonglass he found at the Fist of the First Men, and Bran actually begins researching (well, looking into the past) to see the creation of the White Walkers with an obsidian dagger, meaning he's on the road to discovering how to defeat the White Walkers where no one else can. Well, except for maybe Sam - if he doesn't get himself killed. Sam even gives this great speech about how he got lucky with one White Walker, and there were many White Walkers - and for each of them, too many dead soldiers to count.
In a beautiful way Sam is doing what Bran is, looking into the past - reading the old histories of Westeros, seeing the past without Bran's gift. Or rather, he would be if he wasn't faffing about.

To conclude this Heartsbane is not an ornamental sword, for it is the greatsword Randyll Tarly uses in battle. If they managed to get one of the few people alive capable of reforging Valyrian steel to do the job for free and didn't all get killed by Randyll Tarly, they would still be horribly incapable of stopping the White Walkers - and this is all knowledge Sam knows, being one of the only two people alive researching how to stop the White Walkers.


Tl;dr: Sam spent 5 seasons learning that the pen is mightier than the sword, yet when confronted with the sword or the book, chooses the sword.

Loud Whispers

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Spoiler: Ep 7 guess synopsis (click to show/hide)

On the topic of bloodriders I feel for them - they've got a sadder story than Hodor or Friendzone Mormont.
Bloodriders Aggo, Kovarro and Rakharo are some of the few Dothraki who stay with Danaerys when the Khalasar fractures. At this point Danaerys has no real power, and yet they stay with her out of loyalty they have no reason to keep - doing it out of sincere devotion against their custom, being the first to have ever followed a Khaleesi instead of bringing her to Vaes Dothrak. Even before Danaerys was Khaleesi they guarded her, guarding her against Viserys and capturing the assassin who nearly killed her.
They make an enormous display of service by pledging themselves to her, as at that point doing so seems like certain death. For Rakharo, this is exactly what happens - whilst Danaerys's Khalasar is lost in the great wastes she sends her three bloodriders in three directions, to find anything - water, civilization, anything. Rakharo is found by a rival Khalasar and butchered. Aggo doesn't find anything noteworthy. Kovarro finds Qarth, saving all of their lives.
At Qarth Kovarro is the one who tempers the Dothraki penchant for looting and pillaging, minimizing their activities to merely occasionally stealing gold and jewels from the local affluents. Kovarro then defends her against the sorcerous thirteen, fighting off magical murderers with nothing more than his arakh and dedication, following her all the way to the tower of the undying until she disappears. Then he leads the looting of Xaro's palace. Then the bloodriders take to the sea, despite the immense fear of the sea the Dothraki have - Kovarro and Aggo keep them together until they are in slaver's bay to buy the Unsullied. Once Danaerys gains the Unsullied she gains soldiers more valuable than the few Dothraki she still has alive, and increasingly begins replacing Kovarro with Greyworm in matters of war. By the time she gains the Second Sons - her Khalasar becomes obsolete, as she has gained a far larger cavalry force. Still Kovarro and Aggo follow her with their Dothraki.
When she flies away on Drogon from the Harpy attack in the fighting pits, Kovarro and Aggo volunteer to go out and search for Danaerys. As better trackers and horsemen than both Jorah and Daario, they are nonetheless passed off and remain in Meereen combating the Sons of the Harpy.
Little do they know that in Vaes Dothrak, Danaerys is selecting new Bloodriders. She declares that she has yet to select her three bloodriders - she doesn't even remember Aggo and Kovarro, and it has been a long time since she even honoured her bloodriders by letting them eat at her table (see: never). She promptly honours her new Khalasar by making them all her Bloodriders, her blood of her blood.
She has need of her new Khalasar, Kovarro and Aggo have outlived their use.

In the source it's quite clear that Dany is losing it but in the show they play her behaviour straight as the action of a benevolent liberator, so you get that most amazing logic where with an army of terminator eunuchs, walking WWI rape machine Mongols and tattooed slave beasts coming to 'break the wheel'... By putting another Targaeryan master in charge of the world via conquest and dragons, literally bringing the world back to square one. She is the wheel, with her Iraq, her torturing and execution of innocents, her desire for world conquest - so far Dany has never faced a single setback (least not enough to stop feeling like an underdog whilst bringing nukes to a gunfight) with all fawning over her or dying horrendously, so one wonders whether they will continue to play this straight until the end.
One wonders how this will play out, more significantly how it will be portrayed. Lol jk she's gonna come back to Meereen as a saviour with all cheering mhysa before she wrrryyyyyys into Wrysteros with all shouting mhysa to the tune of whymsical opera

Also some random crap:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Spoiler: Best one (click to show/hide)
WOLOLO

Xantalos

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Holy fuck I just realized something. Bloodriders kill themselves after their khal dies to follow their khal into the afterlife, don't they?

So now that Dany's entire khalasar is nothing but blood riders (made up of a large number of women and children no less) the consequences for when Dany bites the dust are going to be fucking hilarious.

Ly dark.
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Loud Whispers

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I don't recall that fluff, it's not like they even give a shit

We gonna go down like Russians in CK2: Everything changed when the Mongols attacked
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
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Kot

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Actually it was Brans fault all along.
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MarcAFK

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Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Sorry guys, I couldn't help myself. 
Yeah anyway, I have a feeling the finale will basically involve danerys dying tragically by dragon somehow, It'll suck when she takes the whole dothraki with her.
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They're nearly as bad as badgers. Build a couple of anti-buzzard SAM sites marksdwarf towers and your fortress will look like Baghdad in 2003 from all the aerial bolt spam. You waste a lot of ammo and everything is covered in unslightly exploded buzzard bits and broken bolts.

Xantalos

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Yeah, because she Nissa Nissa, disappointing the insane members of the Jon/Dany fanclub who ignore the fact that they'd be a horrible pair for each other
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Leafsnail

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Jon/Dany would really underline one of the key themes of the series though:
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Xantalos

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Given that according to rumor I've heard GRRM's original plan for the trilogy of books he wanted to write included a Jon/Arya/Tyrion triangle, I could believe that.

I don't want to think about it, but I'd believe it.
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TD1

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When you mentioned a key theme of the books, I assumed you were talking about Ice and Fire, Jon and Daenerys. Instead it was incest :P Shoulda seen it coming.
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