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[nenjin]

I remember when I watched the episode of Sansa's wedding night the internet was all up in arms about and was like...THAT was too much for people? I was surprised it wasn't a 20 second close up of Ramsay's ass cut in by shots of a horrified Theon.

People have zero tolerance for anything, whether it's gratuitous or actually serves a narrative purpose. I hated the fact Jon Snow dies because he's maybe the one character besides Tyrion I actually like anymore. They've killed everyone else. But I read an E! "review" of the episode that came across like it was written by a sobbing 14 year old who just realized he's not going to be on the screen anymore. (Probably.)

[Willfor]

I have no idea about the "mainstream" outrage, but pretty much the majority of it I've seen is because Sansa's rape was manufactured by the producers, reverses character development for Sansa, is completely unnecessary to make people loathe Ramsey anymore than we already do, removes the fact that Sansa was one of the few women who hadn't been raped in the series, and the entire scene is framed in such a way that it is meant to be character development for fucking Theon.

They had Sansa raped to further Theon's arc. Okay.

I'm pretty fucking salty about the whole bit to be honest. The fact that nobody is calling the people who complain about Stannis's character getting assassinated (and yes, that's what they did, they removed any ambiguity from his character so that the people who will win the Iron Throne won't look dirty) as having "zero tolerance for anything" is a bit ensaltening as well. There was plenty of outrage about that.

[Orange Wizard]

They had Sansa raped to further Theon's arc. Okay.

And they had Meryn Trant's eyes stabbed out and throat cut to further Arya's arc. What's the difference?

[Willfor]

Rape is a bad thing to use as a motivational device for a female character, even though it is constantly used a source of motivation for them. It is lazy storytelling as best, often poorly handled. Rape is almost never used as a plot device against men. It is use constantly against wives, daughters, and friends of male characters in order to provide motivations for them in every form of media. Do you need a man to start killing people? Rape his wife. Better yet, rape her, and then kill her. In represents the removal of agency from a character.

GRRM himself has never actually used this blatantly. D&D are using it in its most egregious form.

Death has a completely different context in media. It's also usually used in shitty forms against women, but so far they haven't fridged anyone.

And Arya's arc is one of the things they haven't managed to fuck up, and it's mostly because they haven't tried to change it drastically from the book. Arya is named character with POV in the books. If Arya had been raped I would also be pretty salty about it, but if Arya dies in the middle of combat or gets assassinated that's a completely different thing. Instead she kills someone from her list, something that was always going to happen. Sansa's arc was to be something completely different, but I have to assume that rape was not going to be a part of it.

There's context to all of this. It doesn't exist by itself, it exists within a storytelling landscape that goes back thousands of years.

[nenjin]

I have no idea about the "mainstream" outrage

When a US Senator declares they're done watching the show after that, it tends reflect some populist opinion.

but pretty much the majority of it I've seen is because Sansa's rape was manufactured by the producers, reverses character development for Sansa, is completely unnecessary to make people loathe Ramsey anymore than we already do, removes the fact that Sansa was one of the few women who hadn't been raped in the series, and the entire scene is framed in such a way that it is meant to be character development for fucking Theon.

From my perspective, it was unpleasant but it made total narrative sense. Having not read the books and with zero expectations other than what the show has taught me about itself over time, it's shown it likes to hurt the audience that watches it via the stuff it does to characters.

So it came as no surprise that when Sansa ends up with the vilest, evilest thing in Westeros, something really horrible happens. Whether that's manufacturing the rape or the consequence of the not-canon they wrote themselves into, I dunno.

I'm pretty fucking salty about the whole bit to be honest. The fact that nobody is calling the people who complain about Stannis's character getting assassinated (and yes, that's what they did, they removed any ambiguity from his character so that the people who will win the Iron Throne won't look dirty) as having "zero tolerance for anything" is a bit ensaltening as well. There was plenty of outrage about that.

Well, one is nerd rage which is in its own sphere of debate. The other is nerd rage, and actually touches on a very topical issue in American society today, and so I felt like the people who reacted really negatively to the scene were in a sense taking the stance that "rape is not ok to have in your fictitious story." And I don't really agree with that. It may be unpleasant but it's not off limits as far as a narrative topic goes. That's going too far into censorship.

That said, if it's using it is gratuitously for its own sake, that's not ok and you can certainly make the argument GoT does just that. However, if you've been watching GoT this long, with all the gratuitous sex, violence and general shittiness people display to each other without batting an eye until this....I have a hard time ceding the moral high ground. It's an ugly show based on an ugly book where ugly things happen. And since the author signed off on it...who should you really be mad at?

Rape is a bad thing to use as a motivational device for a female character, even though it is constantly used a source of motivation for them. It is lazy storytelling as best, often poorly handled. Rape is almost never used as a plot device against men. It is use constantly against wives, daughters, and friends of male characters in order to provide motivations for them in every form of media. Do you need a man to start killing people? Rape his wife. Better yet, rape her, and then kill her. In represents the removal of agency from a character.

I'm not saying it's a great motivation, but it happens. Even today. Right now in fact. It's a facet of human existence whether we like it or not, and so it will find its way into our storytelling. It makes me plenty uncomfortable but I don't really believe in telling an author they shouldn't do it if they believe their story warrants it. Change rape to murder and suddenly a vast swath of entertainment would be deemed unacceptable because someone feels that strongly about it.

I have to point out too that rape isn't always solely used as an easy narrative play on people's emotions as they relate to violence against women. Plenty of character arcs, male and female, have a basis in rape somewhere, where it informs their psyche. As you point out, it's even part of ancient mythologies.

[Willfor]

This isn't about whether they can do it or not. This is about it being stupid and unnecessary considering the source material. This is about a train of decisions that might look fine to the casual eye, but reflect a deeper issue that the producers charged with adapting the books continue to propagate. The last two replies to me have not even addressed the salient point. This isn't about the rape. This is about the changes they've made to the character arcs that are going to usher Dany in as the savior of the world at the end of the series, not as a complicated character coming into the muss up and already complicated situation, but as the head of the "Good People" coming to take over from the "Evil People" who have had all of their redeeming qualities scrubbed from them. (this doesn't apply to Ramsey, he was this way from the beginning.)

Please don't hold up "this is something that happens" as something that even matters here. All of the arcs are being rewritten so that anyone who isn't THE CHOSEN ONE is covered in shit, where the entire point of the books is that everyone is covered in shit. They've scrubbed all of Jon, Dany and Tyrion's flaws, so. Sansa's rape was so unnecessary to anything except that the producers wanted to do it.

[Sheb]

Well, I agree that the way they kill story arcs left and right is annoying, but that's not the issue I've seen reviews bitch about. The think was specifically about Sansa's rape, and while Sansa herself doesn't get raped in the book, the character she replace (fake Arya) does. And it also makes sense, as it leads to the suicide and show!Sansa and it's the way they found to kill her story arc.

[Xantalos]

Also they totally died from that fall. In the books

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

reek and jeyne had a 30-foot deep snowdrift or somesuch to break their fall

but here they had nothing to stop them from dying. Hell, the one bitch who just fell down illustrates what's gonna happen to them.

kek

[Vattic]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

They spent the entire show building up Jon as a principled character. He makes the hard choices but he's got honor, commitment, all that jazz. Marching to Winterfel with Stannis, while justified by his character's background, wouldn't jive with the Jon they've had in the show. Going to Winterfel would be an act of vengeance, making himself King of the North just like Melisandre and Stannis both wanted him to, and tried to get him to do. Everyone liked that Jon was like "No, the Night's Watch is more important." But not sooo important that he wouldn't break the rules to do the right thing.

So they probably felt that for Jon's last hurrah, having him do something that would be unpopular for what the TV character was known for, right before they die, wasn't acceptable. Unfortunately, when you screw with arranged logic chains and characterization from pre-existing sources like this, you end up with logical disconnects like "Why didn't they kill Jon sooner." Since the breaking point for the Night's Watch never happened, it makes their next, necessary act look out of place. They probably could have done a better job at playing up how hated Jon is even after the Wildings get through, and I suppose they tried, but it rings hollow after episode of mean stares and un-fulfilled threats. In retrospect the scene between Jon and Samwise is supposed to be foreshadowing. It's just happened so many times before already in the show, you're not inclined to be more worried than you were previously.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I guess if they do bring him back from the dead he'd be free to do what he likes without a loss of honour as his oath ends with death. Not holding my breath, but it's not like coming back from the dead is new to the series.

[Orange Wizard]

Sansa's rape was so unnecessary to anything except that the producers wanted to do it.

Eh. I agree the storytelling is bad, but saying it served no purpose is flagrantly wrong. It establishes Sansa's incredibly crappy situation. It establishes that Theon Reekjoy cared about Sansa (admittedly this was also demonstrated in other, but the emotional response was unique). It sets up their later bajillion foot jump as an understandable response to the predicament. Which was a convenient way of wrapping up the plotline.
Sure, they could have done it another way that didn't involve putting the sensual in non-consensual, but that's not really an argument.

[Yoink]

I think we can all agree on one simple fact, though.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Fuck Olly.

But... but...

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

He's the hero of the season!
Fuck Jon Snow, I say. And no, not in the way so many female fans of the show would probably mean.
Olly for president 2016.

[Xantalos]

Yoink, why do you dislike Jon as heavily as you do? I'm not saying it in an attempt to defend him or anything since he's a bit bland for my tastes, just trying to catalog why people dislike certain characters.

Tell me if the whitewashing the show gives to him is a factor also.

[Loud Whispers]

I read some mainstream critique of this season, and it made me remember why I never ever read/watch mainstream criticism of anything. Every magazine/website's problems with this season stem from "wwwehhh I don't like things that make me uncomfortable", not any of the actual writing and characterization problems like 20GOODMEN, #1 Dad or the Bland Snakes. Almost all of them mentioned the Walk of Shame, none of them at all mentioned Ramsay Snow.

wow like wow i cant even thats so problematic like its toxic wow

Also, kek at bland snakes - I thought they did the sand snakes better in show than in the books. I think they could've cut them down even more to just 3, but 4 is still better than a dozen.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Killing Myrcella really fucks up Prince Doran hotwheels though. The fuck is up with that?

#1 Dad is all right in my books (heh). Especially considering how it all ends.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Such an end for Stannis the Mannis

RAMSAAAAAAAAAAAAAY - No D:<, 20GOOD too stronk, go home writers you are drunk

I have no idea about the "mainstream" outrage, but pretty much the majority of it I've seen is because Sansa's rape was manufactured by the producers, reverses character development for Sansa, is completely unnecessary to make people loathe Ramsey anymore than we already do, removes the fact that Sansa was one of the few women who hadn't been raped in the series, and the entire scene is framed in such a way that it is meant to be character development for fucking Theon.
They had Sansa raped to further Theon's arc. Okay.

Nah m9, this is one of those things they did to not confuse simple people. Theon was already showing signs of development, and would have even if they had actually used fake arya who doesn't show up in the show. But like most other characters, this would "confuse" the audience, because the audience can't handle 2ARYA or some shit. It was disappointing to not get to see Stansa digging her nails into Robin Arryn, just as Margaery had to Joffrey and Tommen. Though maybe the show writers axed that because it was too similar? It doesn't make sense. Just like moving Brienne to the North, I suspect all of this is just meant to simplify GRRMMMMMMS plotlines. Everyone's in the North.
Also, wtf, we didn't even get a meeting between the Ironborn, Yara and Stannis? R'hollor on a pogo stick, the Ironborn get less and less love every day

This isn't about whether they can do it or not. This is about it being stupid and unnecessary considering the source material. This is about a train of decisions that might look fine to the casual eye, but reflect a deeper issue that the producers charged with adapting the books continue to propagate. The last two replies to me have not even addressed the salient point. This isn't about the rape. This is about the changes they've made to the character arcs that are going to usher Dany in as the savior of the world at the end of the series, not as a complicated character coming into the muss up and already complicated situation, but as the head of the "Good People" coming to take over from the "Evil People" who have had all of their redeeming qualities scrubbed from them. (this doesn't apply to Ramsey, he was this way from the beginning.)

Danaerys was always messianic mary sue saviour of the world tho, that's part of her prophecy. Whether it's in book or in show, it's always "oh no Dany you have option 1 (bad) or option 2 (worse) or death!" And then Dany's all like "fuk u i do wot i want, sekrit option 3" and wins flawlessly every time. To the show's credit, they've made her supporting cast more interesting, so not all of Dany's scenes are boring.
But then again, they killed off Barristen the Boss.
Ahh... At least we get Tyrion and Varys bants, and the Dany husbando patrol out to rescue the Queen of being mildly amused, aroused and whimsical around dragons.

TYRION, SAVE THE SHOW PLS

[Yoink]

Yoink, why do you dislike Jon as heavily as you do? I'm not saying it in an attempt to defend him or anything since he's a bit bland for my tastes, just trying to catalog why people dislike certain characters.

Tell me if the whitewashing the show gives to him is a factor also.

Well, I only read the first few books, and that was after watching a couple of seasons, so that doesn't colour my opinion.
I'm pretty sure I liked him right at the start of the show, but then he went off to join the Night's Watch and started doing increasingly stupid things that the show tried to portray as 'heroic' or some such nonsense.

It's been a long time so I'm hazy on the details, but he was annoying enough before the whole 'lived with the wildlings for a while' thing, and then after that he suddenly adopted their accent and started talking like some sort of fantasy chav whilst singing the praises of these bloodthirsty savages. Oh and he basically told Olly to suck it up when the kid complained about this whole "allying with the people who slaughtered his village" thing. And let's not forget all those teeth-grindingly painful bonding scenes with Sam, or the whole romance plot with Ygritte.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Ygritte was also annoying, don't you worry, and I was just as ecstatic when she died as I am after watching the last episode.
...Holy shit, I'd forgotten that Olly killed her as well. What next, is he going to trek to King's Landing to kill the High Sparrow and his cronies, then traverse the narrow sea to bump off Danaerys, and thus have bumped off all the characters that annoy me most on the show? Oh, and slaughter the entirety of Dorne whilst he's at it, naturally.
Olly is the hero Gotham needs.

I'm probably forgetting things. One of these days I should re-watch the show. And all those other shows I want to re-watch.
But then people keep making new shows and I have to find time to watch those. :<

[Loud Whispers]

Olly is Azhor Ahai, the hero that was promised, and probably a secret Targaeryan too.

But seriously, why does Jon Snow not just keep repeating "every one of them that dies is a dead man we will have to fight" again and again. It's a very reasonable argument, it's a valid argument, and it worked in the books. In the show he makes it once and then just tells everyone that they have to accept that he's bringing the people they fought for thousands of years south of the wall, and he doesn't even make the whole "don't forget your dead" speech to the southerners. If the Thenns ate him, I wouldn't mind. Also, interesting that the character Olly replaced was a male prostitute from across the narrow sea. Did the show writers intentionally give up yaoibux? I think they did.

Spoiler: Just checked back on what made the NW go all FOR THE WATCH (click to show/hide)

They weren't just pissed off at Jon Snow becoming King of the Wall and beyond. They're pissed off that he assembles a great big army to march south and kill Ramsay. This is a gargantuan breach of vows, only ever committed by the Night King. Literally white walker-tier betrayal. Makes the show's Night Watch justification seem petty in comparison.