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[Sheb]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I said he was killed, not that he died. 

[nenjin]

Which is something I don't like. In the books

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

They only kill Jon Snow after he tries to raise an army of wildlings and brothers to walk south on Winterfell. It makes the decision to kill much more understandable and less "durr durr, we racist no like wildlings".

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Which also kinda bugs me because, and I forget his name, the other commander of the Night's Watch seemed? like even though he didn't like Jon's choices, he had come to terms with them. "You've got a good heart Jon Snow." Which makes you who stabbed him in the heart a....what? Total jerk off? If Jon had tried to march the Wildlings south, yes, that would have been a total violation of the Night's Watch a-political stance, and that'd be a reason to stab Jon Snow. But no such thing was going to happen in the show. So it makes it look like they're just exercising the dislike they've had of Jon for a while, and only decided to do it now after....everything had calmed down, I guess.

Anyways, if you're too stupid or racist to put aside your differences in the face of 100,000 dead guys and WWs inbound...it says to me you don't really take the threat seriously.

[Loud Whispers]

I don't like how all of the northern plotlines have deviated that much farther off the book plot.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Melly accidentally creating the antichrist instead of her in the show just abandoning the antichrist is not nearly as fun. Also no fake Arya, and all of Sansa's character development was effectively undone to reduce her to the fragile plaything of Ramsay JUST AFTER she had escaped being the fragile plaything of Joffrey.

FUCKING RAMSAY

And where are my ironborn?

And honestly, I thought the wildlings calling Jon "King Crow" was foreshadowing him becoming "King beyond the Wall" and then getting stabbed by the Night's Watch. I guess it's ok to let him in with the wildlings, but then you change your mind when they've actually arrived?!

[nenjin]

Right?!?

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

If there was a time to kill Jon Snow, it would have been when he led the Wildlings to the Wall. Not after he'd let them in. Not after Stannis had left. Not after Samwise Gamgee left.

They gave every impression that the Night's Watch had come to terms with Jon's choices, right down to "You've got a good heart Jon Snow" a blatant admission that they know he was doing the right thing, even though they didn't like it.

And then I guess they have a meeting in the mead hall and decided, nah, let's kill him after all.

Maybe it's another classic bait and switch, where they prime you to believe one thing while then doing what the books ultimately say happens.

[JimboM12]

It all stems with George RR Martin being a pretty bad writer overall. Diabolus Ex Machina moments to extend and progress the story makes your series become cliched, especially how he's used it and we've seen it happen so much. Even though the characters and the background lore are rather well thought out (the only reason I kept up with the show and read the first book and read TVtropes/wiki about the rest of the books. And the nudity in the show was a factor, admittedly). While making the likeable protagonists invincible superheroes is boring, he could have found a medium between what he's written and what we've come to expect in fantasy that would make the deaths more meaningful instead of out-of-the-left-field because he couldn't think of a better plot twist that would leave us wanting.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Look at the first book/season. Ned Stark's death was meaningful and unexpected; a sacrifice to save his children. Look at the recent deaths. Random trap kills John Snow that didn't make sense considering he already succeeded in allying with the remaining Wildings and his only stated goal was building forces to fight the white walkers.

Perhaps I'm just buying into the hate sink, but I kinda gave up on taking the series seriously.

[Xantalos]

Spoiler: big spoilers about Jon Snuh (click to show/hide)

Jon's death makes sense though considering he publicly admits he's deserting the Watch to go fight Ramsay. In the books at least, dunno why they decide to kill him inshow.

[JimboM12]

Spoiler: big spoilers about Jon Snuh (click to show/hide)

Jon's death makes sense though considering he publicly admits he's deserting the Watch to go fight Ramsay. In the books at least, dunno why they decide to kill him inshow.

Yeah, i read that in the earlier spoilers, but i forgot to add:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Sansa's brutal rape and torture at the hands of Ramsey. This didn't happen in the books neither, and just felt like a change to get us to watch in the hopes we get to see Ramsey die this season.

[Mr. Strange]

Spoiler: Is it too soon? (click to show/hide)

[Orange Wizard]

Spoiler: Is it too soon? (click to show/hide)

I lol'd.

[itisnotlogical]

Spoiler: big spoilers about Jon Snuh (click to show/hide)

Jon's death makes sense though considering he publicly admits he's deserting the Watch to go fight Ramsay. In the books at least, dunno why they decide to kill him inshow.

Yeah, i read that in the earlier spoilers, but i forgot to add:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Sansa's brutal rape and torture at the hands of Ramsey. This didn't happen in the books neither, and just felt like a change to get us to watch in the hopes we get to see Ramsey die this season.

All the fake Sansas and Aryas were kinda getting tiring in the books, though. Needless complication that would have been kinda hard to pick up on in a TV show format, and Sansa being at Winterfell gave Brienne something to do.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I still miss the brotherhood without banners. Now that Lady Stoneheart is clearly not going to be in the show at all, Beric Dondarrion and Thoros of Myr are just kind of a freak occurrence that has no ultimate relevance whatsoever, unless it's establishing that Melisandre's magic is real (which was already handily proven by the shadowbaby that killed Renly). I think it's a much more interesting twist for Brienne than what's happening in the show right now.

[Supercharazad]

I think we can all agree on one simple fact, though.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Fuck Olly.

[ChairmanPoo]

Watched the episode for realz.

Now I'm more convinced than before that

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The Mannis is alive and Bryenne did not complete her swing.

Jon... I suspect he will get a Melissandre resurrection. In fact I wager that's the whole point of having her beat it to the wall, of all places. She does seem contrite after she fucked up that last spell.

[Loud Whispers]

Right?!?

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

If there was a time to kill Jon Snow, it would have been when he led the Wildlings to the Wall. Not after he'd let them in. Not after Stannis had left. Not after Samwise Gamgee left.

They gave every impression that the Night's Watch had come to terms with Jon's choices, right down to "You've got a good heart Jon Snow" a blatant admission that they know he was doing the right thing, even though they didn't like it.

And then I guess they have a meeting in the mead hall and decided, nah, let's kill him after all.

Maybe it's another classic bait and switch, where they prime you to believe one thing while then doing what the books ultimately say happens.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

They had it guest wrapped with Snuuuh too. Instead of having him shanked by the Night's Watch, just have him locked out of the Wall. That would give the perfect excuse for Jon Snuuuh to prove to the Wildlings that he is himself not a true Crow, but in fact King beyond the walllll, leading to him using an old gate/breaking down the current gate and getting shanked the fuck out.

I think we can all agree on one simple fact, though.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Fuck Olly.

u wot m8
olly is best squire

olly bs poddrick SQUIREBOWL NOW git HYPE

[nenjin]

Spoiler: Is it too soon? (click to show/hide)

I lol'd.

Lol'd good too.

At this point, it seems pretty clear that what makes for a good novel, and what makes for a good TV show aren't the same thing, and the show is having to invent stuff but then ultimately follow the book to the major plot points.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

They spent the entire show building up Jon as a principled character. He makes the hard choices but he's got honor, commitment, all that jazz. Marching to Winterfel with Stannis, while justified by his character's background, wouldn't jive with the Jon they've had in the show. Going to Winterfel would be an act of vengeance, making himself King of the North just like Melisandre and Stannis both wanted him to, and tried to get him to do. Everyone liked that Jon was like "No, the Night's Watch is more important." But not sooo important that he wouldn't break the rules to do the right thing.

So they probably felt that for Jon's last hurrah, having him do something that would be unpopular for what the TV character was known for, right before they die, wasn't acceptable. Unfortunately, when you screw with arranged logic chains and characterization from pre-existing sources like this, you end up with logical disconnects like "Why didn't they kill Jon sooner." Since the breaking point for the Night's Watch never happened, it makes their next, necessary act look out of place. They probably could have done a better job at playing up how hated Jon is even after the Wildings get through, and I suppose they tried, but it rings hollow after episode of mean stares and un-fulfilled threats. In retrospect the scene between Jon and Samwise is supposed to be foreshadowing. It's just happened so many times before already in the show, you're not inclined to be more worried than you were previously.

Honestly, if Alliser Thorne had continued being a total bastard to Snow all the up until he killed him, it would have done a better job of foreshadowing their motivations, and made the change from the book irrelevant. But I suspect in order to build up Jon Snow even further, they had to make even people who hate his guts respect him on some level. As it is, Thorne kept seeming to get more and more resigned to the fact Jon was Lord Commander and the way he was doing things...which made the betrayal not really unexpected, but seemingly out of character at that point.

I suppose not having read the books is why I'm still watching the show at this point. Meddling in the narrative of this sort would probably bug me to the point I'd stop watching. As it is, I get to take the show as gospel, but the inconsistencies and weird reasons for people doing the things they do continue to stick out, even to me.

I think we can all agree on one simple fact, though.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Fuck Olly.

Pretty sure he's going to end up a serial killer, or something, after all the bad karma he's been around and involved with.

[itisnotlogical]

I read some mainstream critique of this season, and it made me remember why I never ever read/watch mainstream criticism of anything. Every magazine/website's problems with this season stem from "wwwehhh I don't like things that make me uncomfortable", not any of the actual writing and characterization problems like 20GOODMEN, #1 Dad or the Bland Snakes. Almost all of them mentioned the Walk of Shame, none of them at all mentioned Ramsay Snow.