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[Lenglon]

sorry about being idle yesterday, life got crazy on me and I barely had enough time to check my pms, lets alone do a proper mafia read and analysis.

Lenglon

Tiruin: ok, I've got the answer I was looking for in amoungst that big ol' mess of confusion we just had. What's going on is I wanted to put you and Toony on the spot simply as a form of RVS-style "how do you think" question. you think asked me a some questions about how I thought in response, without answering mine. That was what I was referring too.

I believe the bolded statement talks about something you're getting before my last post then, huh?

Where did you get your answer? What was it, exactly?

Because it doesn't seem like it helps get information from the persons asked at all in how you make your question.

I learned that you were bothered by my question, and assumed that that I had a secondary agenda beyond a RVS-style question when I asked it. This confirms that flavor is important to you.

I don't feel a need to ask you to claim your description. keep it to yourself until you have a reason to claim.

So why do yours?

Because I've already said so much that there's almost no additional risk from me claiming my description, and with the information that I've claimed thus far I figured I might as well include the full set. also, by having a template out there for comparison, so other townies know what is common between us, it allows town to attempt gambits similar to leafsnail's where they ask for specific information.

Like I mean christ, that wincon was basically a free mafia member dead and you just ruined it.

not really, I still don't fully understand how your plan worked, but the townie wincon was already given away waaaaay back here:

the word "witch" never shows itself directly in my past (beyond my win condition statement - eliminate all witches - and it is noteworthy that it says nothing about third parties at all in my win condition)

and on that subject, I do not favor a Tiruin-lynch for the simple and direct reason of Tiruin isn't a witch if she is third-party, and our wincon is to eliminate all witches, not to eliminate all non-town.
PPE:
Vector: wait, I'm town now? I thought I was supposedly scum. what changed your mind?

[Vector]

There's a post about this somewhere.  I'll go dig it up.

[Vector]

At this point I think she's just extraordinarily naive, so unvote.  But throughout the game she's been conflating a lack of authoritative behavior with impoliteness, made sloppy excuses for keeping out of the center of things (because we're just doing a bunch of chainsaws, we're not actually figuring anything out!), and, well, requesting policy lynches on people for lurking over actually doing things.  Engaging in ad hominems to defend herself against my accusations.  These are all things that nervous scum will happily engage in to throw off the scent, making appeals to emotion... but so do noobtown.

But at this point... my impression is that she actually doesn't know what's going on.  So I'm going to give it a little time.

Gonna have to reread in a while.

Here you go.  This is around when I started thinking you were town.

[zombie urist]

I do stand by it, I'm not absolutely certain of the SK part, but I'm fairly sure a town member would not panic that much. And I am not certain of the reason, but if I took a guess, I'd think it has to do with the the fact that witch-elimination is a wincon.

I don't have much time right now, but I noticed this. Not my wincon or the wincon but a wincon.

Also I will be busy this weekend.

[Ottofar]

I do stand by it, I'm not absolutely certain of the SK part, but I'm fairly sure a town member would not panic that much. And I am not certain of the reason, but if I took a guess, I'd think it has to do with the the fact that witch-elimination is a wincon.

Why did you pretend not to have read NQT's post?

I could point out that NQT did not at any point say eliminate, but kill. And that wincon-based scumhunting isn't really that fun, in my opinion.

[Lenglon]

I could point out that NQT did not at any point say eliminate, but kill. And that wincon-based scumhunting isn't really that fun, in my opinion.

Hallelujah! an actual scumhunting point, and a point against NQT! still not a single non-RVS question throughout the entire game, but at least there's the ghost of a shadow of scumhunting now.

NQT: why did you say kill instead of eliminate?

[notquitethere]

(Just a quick post before I go to bed- anything outstanding I'll address on the morrow)

Lenglon, 'eliminate' and 'kill' are synonyms. What do to think lynching does to the witches? Once again Ottofar is making a complete non-point. Also, he says win-con-based scumhunting isn't fun, but that's not an argument against its effectiveness.

[Jim Groovester]

Votecount:

Dariush	- 0 -
Deathsword	- 1 -	griffinpup
griffinpup	- 0 -
Leafsnail	- 0 -
Lenglon	- 0 -
notquitethere	- 2 -	Ottofar, Dariush
Okami No Rei	- 1 -	zombie urist
Ottofar	- 3 -	Lenglon, notquitethere, Leafsnail
Tiruin	- 2 -	Toaster, Vector
Toaster	- 1 -	Tiruin
ToonyMan	- 0 -
Vector	- 1 -	ToonyMan
zombie urist	- 1 -	Okami No Rei
-
Not Voting	- 1 -	Deathsword
No Lynch	- 0 -
-
Extend	- 0 -
Shorten	- 0 -

The Day will end in 20 hours, on the 14th of August, 8PM GMT.

4 votes required to Extend. 7 votes required to Shorten. 1 Extend left for the Day.

[Okami No Rei]

Okami No Rei - Is your wincon to kill all witches?

Yes.

Also that's pretty clearly my wincon considering the trap I was trying to set up before you ruined it in return for a completely useless question.

Now that the trap is sprung, are you going to soft-claim?  Or are you holding out on that for a different trap?

[Tiruin]

PFP will address Vector and hypocritical Toaster later on and argh timezones.

(Just a quick post before I go to bed- anything outstanding I'll address on the morrow)

Lenglon, 'eliminate' and 'kill' are synonyms. What do to think lynching does to the witches? Once again Ottofar is making a complete non-point. Also, he says win-con-based scumhunting isn't fun, but that's not an argument against its effectiveness.

Explicitly 'kill'?

[Tiruin]

Tiruin, can you explain why you know about a greater threat on the horizon than witches and said nothing about it?  I can't see any reason not to warn the town other than that greater threat actually being you.  This sort of verbal sleight-of-hand seems... very Tiruinish.

Ma'am, if you can glean anything better from a single line of a dream I had that details feelings and huge generalities like 'you sense the presence of <moral opposites> [the word is an adjective ascribed to power which isn't a pleonasm] within the city' and foreboding personal ideas, then I would've said it in the first mention of the game.

However saying so makes me vulnerable. While it does give townies the perception that there are other things in view other than witches, it gives those certain others a view that someone is present who can sense them.

Next, as said before, I'm lacking information. The Town has enough to deal with being witches and the usual townie creed and I wouldn't want to bother people (inspire paranoia and all that shtuff) by stating what I know.

Because though it is little, it is enough to say that there are worse things within the area and that they exist. But I get what you're trying to see: if someone sees a threat, then why shouldn't they talk about it in the first place?

> Inspiring paranoia given how little I know about it.
> Time needs to be granted to study more about it.
> Orange part is a blank and..really horrid thing to say given that it lacks context and comes across me as a blank insult.
> You label me based on meta. >__>

Ok, that last sentence you had? Forwarding my point. It came off as biased enough to hurt my feelings. Because labels.

What are you saying anyway? This verbal sleight of hand (...which means?) denotes me being Tiruin?

I'm Tiruin. Me, here, reflects me in real life. If I do something, it's Tiruin-ish? What is Tiruinish anyway? Have you noted a significant quirk that Tiruin does everytime she plays that denotes a unique scumtell or personality tell? How does it relate to being of a certain alignment, and of a certain distinction that said alignment is woeful to the town?

And what is with you and third-parties anyway?

That's a reasonable thing for me to ask, ToonyMan.  Leafsnail has showed up and doesn't feel like scum to me, so I unvoted and asked Tiruin.  Besides... is there any reason we shouldn't speedy quicklynch the third party?

And then this piece of carp. Biting annoying carp.

I fail to understand why people have this sort of anathema on third-parties here. Why do they take priority? You know someone is third-party. You offer your only weapon on fighting scum, to out third party.

How does that make practical sense? Because that third-party may be an SK?

..Goodness. The fallacy here is large enough that I'm going to poke you on it.

Rounding the question to you. Why should you, and why shouldn't you? Details on both. Same to Toaster and ZU, as it seems you three share the same ideas.

[Toaster]

Tiruin:

I fail to understand why people have this sort of anathema on third-parties here. Why do they take priority? You know someone is third-party. You offer your only weapon on fighting scum, to out third party.

How does that make practical sense? Because that third-party may be an SK?

..Goodness. The fallacy here is large enough that I'm going to poke you on it.

Rounding the question to you. Why should you, and why shouldn't you? Details on both. Same to Toaster and ZU, as it seems you three share the same ideas.

...

Look, Tiruin.  I know you from here, and other areas of the forum.  I know you're not a blithering idiot.  Therefore, I can only conclude that you asking me something I just explained in great detail is you being deliberately obtuse.  Allow me to quote myself- again.

I did explain why I concluded that (the misunderstanding which I already stated.)  And sorry, I thought it was common knowledge that third party was bad.  Since you don't agree, I'll explain.

Third parties have a different goal than town.  If they had the same goal, they just would be town.  Since they do not have the same goal as town, they are not acting in the town's interests.  While it is within the realm of possibility that said third party may see benefit from town doing well, that does not mean they will be 100% loyal and helpful to town- again, if so, they'd just be town in the first place.

Let's do some examples.  Survivor has no direct reason to hurt the town.  However, it is in their interest to see the game end as quickly as possible, so they often side with the mafia.  Jesters disrupt scumhunting and waste a lynch.  A martyr wants to draw a nightkill so they may be active in scum hunting, but they don't want to get all the scum lynched before they get killed.  A Brother typically doesn't know the alignment of their target.

More relevant examples- WC1 had a lyncher, a wizard, and a golem.  The lyncher was paired to a townie- this is obviously bad.  The golem was basically a SK, which is even more obviously bad.  The wizard wanted to find and control the golem, but blew away witches and townies alike in its quest to find it.  No one is really sure what happened if the golem was caught, but best case is they both just left town, which still isn't pro town.

WC2 had a bell-sounder that created a SK and a cult.  I don't think I need to explain why these are anti-town.

So, do I think third parties should hang?  Yes, absolutely.  In past WC games they've even been more of a threat than witches.

As for your hypothetical, almost certainly.  I shall return you with another hypothetical:  if a third-party is beneficial to the town, why wouldn't it just be town?

-snip-

As for believing anything I say--that's relative. As well as believing everything everyone else says. *handwaves argument* You want to stereotype? Go do so. Whatever consequence of that will be attributed to ignorance.

I mean, heck. Sure, we can attribute third-party to the neutral jerk who picks sides and doesn't care about stuff, or wishes to kill people for the heck of it, but...that's really shocking seeing your extremism there. And it being shared by ZU given his point of view on it.

How do you view a third-party? Why should they be hanged in lieu of unclaimed scummy people? Should they be hanged if they are third-party, and nothing else?

I believe I've answered all this above, and I stand by my reasoning on it. 

The underlined bit, especially.  I am for lynching scummy people, sure, but when scum jumps out at me, why not take it up on its offer?

And yes, I think third party should hang.

[Tiruin]

Yes I got that part about third-parties and differing goals from town, but I was poking at the essential parts of what constitutes a general act of aggression towards third-parties.

It's like generalizing someone because they're different and/or have different priorities. I can get that people would be taking the safer side and grilling it as it may be an SK, but I'm looking into the essence of the argument there (or we're just hilariously misinterpretating each other. Humor in understanding, somehow.)

Third parties have a different goal than town.  If they had the same goal, they just would be town.  Since they do not have the same goal as town, they are not acting in the town's interests.  While it is within the realm of possibility that said third party may see benefit from town doing well, that does not mean they will be 100% loyal and helpful to town- again, if so, they'd just be town in the first place.

if a third-party is beneficial to the town, why wouldn't it just be town?

I believe the deviation lies in the wincondition. If it is beneficial to town, then why not? A third-party is a third-party as in my terms, it has other responsibilities and goals (+abilities at times) than the usual 'KILL ALL SCUM'.

An example is the survivor: He/She has free reign on who to side with. Only problem: Must live. Said survivor can be beneficial to town by acting as a mafia-sided ally to coerce them into slipping. Via wording or other minor details within posts, it acts as such. The same could be said to them acting with scum.

Many many factors. The only ones I see that really deserve the 'LYNCH HIM NAO' are the arsonist-types and SK-types. Those that are detrimental to the general populace. As for the rest; sure, their wincon is different (it doesn't give the 'You should remove all mafia' notion) but its in what the player does which matters.

Except for jesters. Those guys? I've nothing to say as I've never played against one or as one, or have the logical capability to think what I'd do as one.

The fact that they exist, given the chance of free-will and how people have their own unique personas and personalities, I can't find any agreement with the bolded part and it's preceding context.

But there's my line. Maybe I'm looking at this too much in a philosophical way that it clouds my interpretation of what you see.

..What do you see, anyway?

[Yes that post is taking long. Wait up.

Mod: Day will end in..18 hours from now?]

[Tiruin]

Also..wasn't that just a load of meta examples? Relevant..but using metaknowledge.

[Vector]

Tiruin, please don't be upset.  All I'm saying is that a lot of people who generally stick hard to their morals will pick lies of omission rather than whoppers, and I think I've caught you in one.  It's a Vectorish thing to do as well.

As for why third parties are an auto-lynch: I agree, perhaps, that at another time we should argue out the theory.  But what I have been informed is that in these games, third parties are usually far more dangerous to the town than the witches are.  This points to the notion that you should hang.