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[Toaster]

Lenglon:

...
ok
unvote

You can't just back off a vote like that and then go nowhere.  Who else do you suspect, and why?

Well, I do see you follow another line of attack, but you back off it too.  The question above still stands.


Dariush:  Fair enough.


NQT:

Toaster

NQT:  In the first game, IIRC all the out-of-towners were third party.  Are you non-town?

"A most interesting suggestion, Monsieur Petit. I am not, as you say, a "third party". I am a journeyman carpenter. But, alors! We must not rule out ze possibility of townsfolk sharing connections through similar circumstances. On zat note..."

Toaster
"Monsiuer Petit, are you not also from out of town, as a farmer yourself?"

These- especially put together- are some pretty serious deflection.  You really don't like me implying that you're third party because you're out of town- as such, I do believe I will keep voting you.

To answer your question, no, I live nearby in an outlying farm.  I just have to haul up to the market to make my sales.


Griffin:

So, Deathsword, you have posted three times since this game started.  Your first post was to ask three RVS questions, one of which is apparently a joke.  Your second and third are merely answering RVS questions.

Why did you only ask two REAL RVS questions? 
What is your thorough opinion on RVS as a whole?
Why haven't you built a semblance of a case or voted yet?

This is a fairly weak attack.  The game's only been open ~40 hours- how much content should he have at this point?  I smell pretend pressure.

[zombie urist]

There are three separate threads here that you are muddling together.
First:  The idea that everyone should soft-claim name and profession.
I agree with this.  I believe it is a pro-town move, since, as Toaster said, we're likely to have a town flavor cop, and it forces scum to either stand out as dissenters, lie, or give up some of their information.
Second:  NQT claiming, and calling out everyone to claim in his first post.
I find this to be potentially scummy, and he still hasn't given me a satisfactory explanation for why he thinks what he did was pro-town.  I would have preferred holding off on the soft-claim until the majority of the town was behind it, in order to maximize the pressure on scum to go along with it.
Third:  My choice to soft-claim at the same time as I called out NQT.
This was damage control.  The only way a soft-claim has power as a potential weapon against scum is through pressure from a united town.  NQT hurt that potential power by claiming so early.  I threw my own weight behind it in order to restore some of its strength, hopefully start a snowball effect, and to try to curtail the inevitable arguments against soft-claiming, which scum could easily hide behind if they needed to.

You originally voted NQT for rolefishing, which makes this entire section look like backtracking.
"Potentially" has no real meaning in mafia. Everything is potentially scummy. Its the same as saying someone is possibly scum.
Also if anything I think discussing the matter would allow scum more opportunity to dismiss the idea.

zombie urist

ONR's post was pretty scummy and I didn't notice anyone else being scummy. Also I hoped to kick the game out of RVS.

That's strange.  When you voted me without explanation, I assumed it was an RVS vote.  Now you say you found my post scummy.  Would you please point out which parts, and explain why you found them so?

It was originally a pressure vote based on the stuff I pointed out in the post.

Those were two different questions.
NQT asked how long I'd lived in town.  My flavor did not specify whether the place I grew up was actually in town or not.  I've clarified this with LNCP, and can now say that yes, I have lived in town all my life.
You asked me where I grew up.  That information is linked to my role, and I choose not to roleclaim at this time.

If you lived in town all your life, then you must have grown up in town.

Both your previous response and this one speak volumes about how you think about the game, and have greatly improved my mental model of you as a player.

Ok.

I meant that I was being aggressive also to leave RVS. I don't think I'm tunneling.

Don't beat around the bush.  You were tunneling me.  You claim you did it to end RVS, but while that is an acceptable reason  (I've done that myself), it is not on its own sufficient reason.  What I be sufficient reason is if you believe that I am scum, but I've yet to see your case against me.  Just what I thought was an RVS vote coupled with a few of what seemed like RVS questions.

I still don't think I was tunneling. >_>
Just for fun please show me where you tunnelled to end RVS. Also now I do believe you are scum. The irony.

Griffinpup: Why did you point out the exact same thing I pointed out earlier here?

NQT: I really don't like how you're focusing so much on flavor. Especially in this post. Actually I've just gone through your posts and they are all are either answering questions/accusations and flavor questions.

"I wish for a peaceful place, and do not want witch-trials ravaging the town.  This is purely for the good of the people."

So your dude is ok with famine and miscarriage? What does "this" refer to?

I don't think my character was even aware of such famine and miscarriage actually taking place.  When he heard news of the Inquistors he was shocked and came down at once.
I don't understand what you mean by this.  Blame my writing skills if that's the case.  I wanted to respond in-character.

You said "this is purely for the good of the people". I want to know what is purely for the good of the people.

More coming.

[zombie urist]

griffinpup - If you were an SK in this game, would you kill N1?  Would the alignment of D1's lynchee inform your decision whether or not to kill N1?
zombie urist - If you were a vigilante in this game, would the alignment of D1's lynchee inform your decision whether or not to kill N1?
Deathsword - What do we do with witches?

RVS questions are lazy. The first two questions are both basically the same and I'll also say why I don't like them later. Third question is a joke. Also a joke question to the mod. Also not included here is a repeat question of Vector's.

I don't like the first two questions because they both have an obvious answer. Yes as both town and SK are uninformed, all information should be considered for all actions. There's really no interesting points suggested by the answer barring extreme situations. Its like asking to show work for 1+1.

Deathsword, griffinpup, Leafsnail, notquitethere - All of you have posted.  None of you have voted.  Please explain why.

This is also lazy, especially since not voting during that stage of the game is not uncommon.

My read of her meta is that she would use the weakness of the question as a weapon against me as Scum, and she would be more concerned with answering the question as Town.  It's certainly not a solid read, but it is an indicator whether I should push her harder, or focus my efforts elsewhere.

I also don't like meta reads as a reason. Meta reads can be easily faked, unless you can provide evidence of games in which you are basing this on. 
Using questions to get reads IMO is not the point of RVS, but whatever.

I will be gone for most of the day tomorrow.

[Lenglon]

Lenglon, at this point you really seem deliberately obtuse.

Vector: Weeellllll, yeah, I am being obtuse on purpose right now. but I still want to hear what conclusion you're drawing from the name similarity. what kind of role do you think it signifies?

Who else do you suspect, and why?

most people are still some flavor of null to me, I'm mostly pushing Vector because Vector is active, responding, and not being pressed by anyone else. I'd actually prefer to be pushing Ottofar right now, because I've never played a game with him before and don't have even the slightest feel for what he is like. but he isn't posting as much as others. I'm also looking forward to Tiruin's first content-containing post, but I don't expect to learn anything about her alignment from it.

as for why I keep taking my vote off when I finish the line of questioning associated with it and not putting it on someone else right away? I want my vote to mean something when I use it.


I'm frustrated with my character, because I've become comforatable with his past and mindset, and I know how he would act, and it's just plain not the way I want to be. I've decided to fullclaim my flavor so that I won't be compelled to try to communicate my character's... well, his character, through RPing as him. I've decided to be me. (and you have no idea how much time i've wasted trying to figure out how to stay in character and failing at it - seriously, this post alone has taken me over two hours of write-rewrite-rerewrite-rererewrite-rerererewrite, where I tried over and over to stay in character without becoming something that I don't want to, and failing at it every. single. time.)
Full-Flavor-Claim:
My name is Regnault Coullart, I am a shoemaker.

the best way to summarize myself is as a lost soul of sorts. previously I had a profitable business in Paris, some rich patrons who came to me for all their shoes, a lovely wife who had given me a daughter and had a son on the way, but then the plague hit. first it took my customers, then my parents, then my daughter, and then my wife, and the plague was still running rampant throughout the city. I fled in terror, trading almost everything I owned, everything but a single painting, my silver cutlery, and one quality cloak, for a ride to anywhere but there.

he dropped me off here. and here I still am, unsure what to do anymore, and with nothing left to live for, yet knowing that my wife and daughter would want me to live on, and so I do. just continuing to make shoes, eat, sleep, and live.

the word "witch" never shows itself directly in my past (beyond my win condition statement - eliminate all witches - and it is noteworthy that it says nothing about third parties at all in my win condition), however with the events taking place here, I feel that the most likely course of action would be to become angry, aggressive, and blame the deaths of everyone I know and love upon witchcraft. followed naturally by attempting to take revenge upon the witches. The problem with it, and the reason I don't want to RP it properly, is because I just don't want to be that kind of person, spewing that kind of vitriol. Dariush would be perfect for it, I am not.

I strongly prefer to be myself than to try to become... that. so... "Please, don't be too harsh on me, ok?"

[Vector]

I dunno, some kind of SK or something.  In any case the bloke was dead rotten.

What are you learning from pressing me?

[Lenglon]

you're more likely town than not, but I don't have a firm feel yet. the biggest evidence in your favor is your comment about typhoid, which is why I jumped on it, to make sure of what I was looking at. as for why your comment about typoid makes you more likely town than not, see my flavor-claim above.

[Lenglon]

Using questions to get reads IMO is not the point of RVS, but whatever.

Zombie Urist: what is the point of RVS?

[Dariush]

Lenglon:

I'm frustrated with my character, because I've become comforatable with his past and mindset, and I know how he would act, and it's just plain not the way I want to be. I've decided to fullclaim my flavor so that I won't be compelled to try to communicate my character's...

Are you fucking kidding me.

Why on earth do you think I'm attacking you for attacking me?

I don't, I think you're attacking Dariush for attacking ZU for attacking ONR for attacking NQT. (assuming i haven't mixed up someone in that paranoia dodecahedron.)

This is an absolutely idiotic oversimplification that in no way reflects the way Mafia works.

ZU, consider my vote on you gracefully slithering out of being an RVS one and into realness. After you were accused of tunneling someone, the thing not to do is go ahead and devote two full posts solely to your target, disassembling their quotes at a nearly OCD level. Remember what SK did in Revolution? Yeah, like that.

Vector:

My husband died of typhoid.

...Please distinguish between 'you' and 'your character' in the future, especially since you're not Lenglon.

ZU, you seem unnaturally aggressive in your post directed at ONR. You wrote a single short post beforehand, and now you went and quoted four separate passages from Okami, ignoring everyone else. Isn't it too early to be tunneling?

Why are you conflating tunneling and leaving RVS?

I am not. Devoting whole posts and a big part of overall activity to a single person is not 'leaving RVS'.

[Ottofar]

NQT

"Monsiuer Gendre, I feel your accusation lacks merit. I am a recent traveler in these parts, how could I be responsible for famines and deformation of children? As a fellow journeyman, have you not also traveled here from afar?"

If I read my flavor correctly, I'm working as a journeyman in the workshop here, but also grew up here.

[1. Hmm... I can see why you'd think it was was WIFOMmy: I didn't intend my response to be an argument that I couldn't possibly be fakeclaiming or somesuch, rather I was merely speaking truthfully, as an aside. Obviously I could still be fakeclaiming and lying about what I would or would not claim.

You should probably stop now.

2. I think you'd be seriously misunderstanding the nature of the set up if you though that there was a good town-friendly reason not to claim our basic identities.

I would've liked to see what people had to say before this. It would probably have given a lead or two. I'm not disagreeing with the claims though.

4. This makes no sense as a witch-hunting vote, as the problems in town were clearly stated to be long ongoing (famine, miscarriage) and so we're probably looking a long-term resident. Bear in mind as well that Toaster has claimed to be a farmer, which implies that he is also from out of town.

Heh. Votes on oneself rarely feel like they make sense, do they?
Have you ever been here before?


Okami

Second:  NQT claiming, and calling out everyone to claim in his first post.

I find this to be potentially scummy, and he still hasn't given me a satisfactory explanation for why he thinks what he did was pro-town.  I would have preferred holding off on the soft-claim until the majority of the town was behind it, in order to maximize the pressure on scum to go along with it.

So, this is scummy if NQT is scum? Make up your mind on that, waffling is a scumtell.

Dariush

I am not. Devoting whole posts and a big part of overall activity to a single person is not 'leaving RVS'.

Giving people something to work on is very much so.

Lenglon

Ottofar: I'd prefer Vig, even when I've found scum I have trouble arguing my cases well, having a vigkill would allow me to bypass that problem if necessary.

The point of this and similar questions is to find out about the answerer's goals in the game. Your answer, a killing role tells me that you're out for blood. This is suspicious.

[notquitethere]

LNCP
[What kind of setting questions can we ask? Looking around, can I examine the other townsfolk? If so, what does Leafsnail's character look like?]

Leafsnail

I see little benefit to be gleaned from flavour claim town wise because the witches can be anyone, as made clear in the flavour.  On the other hand interesting town people would be more likely to have roles and would therefore be clear murder candidates for the scum.  Dariush's quoted passage doesn't suggest that claiming is a good idea at all.

[I think we've come away with quite a different intepretation of the OP (that or you're being deliberately dissembling). I'll make my argument clearer: in this set-up the setting details are significant. It is likely that instead of being mere 'flavour', the descriptions at the beginning and end of day, and the private results of town player's powers, will relate to the specific characters that we are playing. Witholding this basic information is tantamount to saying that you are afraid of self-incrimination. So, your name and profession please.]

Zombie Urist

NQT: Could you please stop using French and the ze thing? Its annoying to read.

[I'm sorry that getting a little into character annoys you ZU, but I will continue to do so where I feel appropriate. You will be pleased to know that as the game proceeds and I am called upon to answer more out-of-character questions, you will see less French.]

Dariush, Deathsword, Zombie Urist
"I could not help but notice zat you are all in the clothes trade. Do any of you work closely together? Also, are any of you new to Uzès?"

Nope.

"I take it zen zat zat is also a 'nope' to being extérieur to Uzès?"

[Sorry, I'm just winding you up now. Could you confirm that you're a long-time resident of the town? Ask the mod if you're unsure.]

NQT: I really don't like how you're focusing so much on flavor. Especially in this post. Actually I've just gone through your posts and they are all are either answering questions/accusations and flavor questions.

[I think we both have very different notions of the nature of this game. You're treating it like a streamlined regular mafia game, which if you re-read the OP you will find that it clearly is not. What you call mere 'flavour' is vital setting detail and contains the clues that will help us find the witches. Your reticence on this point smacks of either witchily evasion or an unhelpful ignorance of the nature of the set-up.]

Griffinpup

Toaster is at an inn, not a tavern, Madam Pitre.  I am currently unaware of whether or not I have the licence to lodge travelers.  But I doubt so.  I'm am specifically a taverner, not an innkeeper.

"I have heard ze terms used interchangably, but you are exacte in your distinction. Duly noted."

Actually answer this question this time, NQT.  1.Why did you claim before discussing the issue?
2.Also, why are you RPing so heavily?
3.You have used it to deflect accusations and questions.

[1. Well for one, I didn't realise not discussing it would be such an issue. It seemed elementary to me that this information should be common knowledge. It never occured to me that others might think it a point to discuss.
2. I very much enjoy roleplaying and LNCP has said in the OP that we are encouraged to embody our roles. Where appropriate (like now) I abstain.
3. I don't believe I have and if I seem to then it hasn't been intentional. I'm more than happy to readdress accusations and questions if my initial answers weren't clear enough.]


Vector

My husband died of typhoid.  Everyone knows that witches are responsible for the foul diseases.

I am town in alignment, but I'm not from here originally; I've been in for about a year.  I don't think that the "born-and-raised" distinction is meaningful, though there may be other, similar flavortext clues.

Wait, was there a carpenter here?  I may have apprenticed my sons to you.

"On what grounds do you dismiss the distinction, Madame? It seems to me zat the witches would most likely have been here a long time given the nature of the problem. It's potentially useful information."

[Also, ZU is right in that as a journeyman I have no apprentices.]

I'd also like to remind everyone at this juncture of The Island of Doctor Moreau.

[Good call. We should be aware of any animal mutilation-related evidence that may appear.]

Deathsword

ZU and NQT
[Monty Python stuff]

[I believe you may have misdirected that at me. Unless there something there you wanted me to respond to?]

Okami

"Sûrement, Monsieur Fleury. I previously addressed everyone and zen you, and so was waiting for the answer from my first question before following up with a vote de pression.

Why wait for an answer before voting?

[OK Okami, the usual way of going about RVS may well be to start your post with a random vote on someone, but that's not the only legitimate way to start. My two-part strategy was: 1. ask the same question of everyone, 2. follow up (with a vote) on the most suspicious of the responses. Are you trying to tell me that this is a worse way to start a game than randomly voting? A random vote has almost no pressure to it.]

You misunderstand my question.  I'm not asking you why you think it's a good idea for everyone to soft-claim.  I want to know why you thought it was a pro-town move to soft-claim in your first post of the game, and call out everyone else to do the same, rather than simply start the discussion on the possibility of soft-claiming, and letting us reach a consensus before doing so.

[As I just explained to griffinpup, the possibility that there wouldn't be a consensus never even occured to me. This has be borne out by the fact that only one player has refused to give their name and profession. Given the nature of the set-up, this information is to the manifest benefit of the town to be shared.]

Toaster

These- especially put together- are some pretty serious deflection.  You really don't like me implying that you're third party because you're out of town- as such, I do believe I will keep voting you.

To answer your question, no, I live nearby in an outlying farm.  I just have to haul up to the market to make my sales.

[I don't think it's deflection: I clearly answered your question, didn't I? I'm not third party. And furthermore, if your reasoning for believing that I am third-party were that I'm an out-of-towner, that would make you a third-party too (outlying is still outside). Your vote is incredibly weak and will mark you as scum if I am lynched or night killed.]

Ottofar

Heh. Votes on oneself rarely feel like they make sense, do they?
Have you ever been here before?

[I fail to see your continued case on me Ottofar. Chuckling softly to yourself is not an argument. You say you would have got reads from people refusing to claim, but isn't that exactly what has just happened with Leafsnail? To answer your question:]

"Non! I have never been to Uzés before my recent arrival."

[lordnincompoop]

LNCP
[What kind of setting questions can we ask?]

You can ask anything you like, but you're not guaranteed to get an answer. As an example, something that would be common knowledge, or part of the scenery (the current year, the weather today, how much is in a dozen) is likely to get a reply. This kind of detectivisation (with a few other flavour clues) outed an SK once, so don't underestimate this.

[Dariush]

Remember what SK did in Revolution? Yeah, like that.

Er, I meant TM7 here.

OF:

Dariush

I am not. Devoting whole posts and a big part of overall activity to a single person is not 'leaving RVS'.

Giving people something to work on is very much so.

How is trying to paint pretty much the entirety of someone's posts as scummy while ignoring everyone else 'giving people something to work on'?

NQT:

Your vote is incredibly weak and will mark you as scum if I am lynched or night killed.

Soooo first you spewed a bunch of WIFOM about fakeclaims and now you're shamelessly blackmailing the town, while continuing to desperately paint yourself as town since the beginning and annoy everyone with your roleplaying. You're such a worthless shitstain, NQT.

[notquitethere]

Dariush

Soooo 1. first you spewed a bunch of WIFOM about fakeclaims and 2. now you're shamelessly blackmailing the town, while 3. continuing to desperately paint yourself as town since the beginning and 4. annoy everyone with your roleplaying. 5.You're such a worthless shitstain, NQT.

[1. Where was the WIFOM? Throwing around mafia jargon isn't an argument.

2. I don't think you know what 'blackmailing' means. I was just making a matter-of-fact statement. When I flip town then weak votes against me should be called into question. This was a statement made to discourage such votes; it was a warning aimed at scum & third-parties that might wish to make these kinds of votes, as well as a signal to town to damn well look at these votes in the likelihood that I am NK'd. By all means, if you're town and you genuinely think I am not and have a good argument why that might be then vote and be prepared to argue your corner on the flip.

3. Since when is appearing to be town a scum-tell? (Not that I expect you to be able to tell. You publicly admitted that your scum hunting is all 'smoke and mirrors'.) What should I have been painting myself as?

4. If I were to refrain from doing everything that annoys you I wouldn't be playing mafia here. Also, not a scum-tell.

5. Dariush, that kind of language is very emotive but doesn't actually add any weight to your point. Also, are you genuinely claiming that my contribution to the game thus far has been worthless? And here I thought that you were in favour of the name and profession claims.]

LNCP

You can ask anything you like, but you're not guaranteed to get an answer. As an example, something that would be common knowledge, or part of the scenery (the current year, the weather today, how much is in a dozen) is likely to get a reply. This kind of detectivisation (with a few other flavour clues) outed an SK once, so don't underestimate this.

[In that case, can you answer any of the following?

1. Has the Viscount been rounded up with the rest of the townsfolk?
2. What is the current population of Uzés?
3. What's happening with the other members of town? (There's more than 13 people in town I assume.)
4. Of the townsfolk that have been rounded up, what is the gender mix?
5. What is the weather currently like?
6. Was there a typhoid outbreak in another town that is common knowledge?]

[Teneb]

I will be extremely busy today and will only un-busy tomorrow afternoon. There won't be any trouble posting from that point.

NQT: I meant Griff. My apologies.

[notquitethere]

Griffinpup
Sorry, I missed this the first time round, but spotted it on re-reading the thread:

Being a journeyman carpenter doesn't mean you're not third party, but you act as if it does and hope that we assume so as well.
And you then go on to use your claimed role again as proof that you're not fake-claiming.

Female journeyman carpenter? Did those exist?

[Whether historical probable or not, that's what I am. If I was fakeclaiming I'd have picked something a bit less questionable, like midwife or male carpenter.]

[You're absolutely right. I suppose there could be carpenters who are also serial killers or whatnot. I guess that didn't occur to me when I was responding before: maybe I was unconciously going on the assumption that the player would have been given the profession 'serial killer' or 'witch' or whatever but on reflection I can see that probably isn't the case. My intention when responding to ZU was not to prove anything. My last statement wasn't a statement of support for an argument, but an aside. It is literally true that if I was fakeclaiming I'd have picked something else, but I don't expect anyone to unquestionably take my word for it.]

Deathsword
[No worries, that's what I figured. Hope you get unbusy soon!]