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[tryrar]

........You do realize that by definition, ALL flak rounds are fragmentation rounds right? We already have those rounds with the LUP-40.

Plus, with the right ammo, the TP-1 is already a good AA gun (just need to load AP rounds). Why do you think the M2 Browning, despite be .07 LESS caliber than our TP-1, was the workhorse of the army(both on the ground AND on aircraft), and to a lesser extent the navy? (hint: it spit out it's rounds at just under 3,000 feet per second, so it didn't need to be all that big)

If you are really THAT concerned about aircraft, why not just design a double/quad mount for the LUP-40? It's basically our analog of the Bofors, which was THE main middleweight AA defense of EVERYONE in WW 2

[Doomblade187]

........You do realize that by definition, ALL flak rounds are fragmentation rounds right? We already have those rounds with the LUP-40.

Plus, with the right ammo, the TP-1 is already a good AA gun (just need to load AP rounds). Why do you think the M2 Browning, despite be .07 LESS caliber than our TP-1, was the workhorse of the army(both on the ground AND on aircraft), and to a lesser extent the navy? (hint: it spit out it's rounds at just under 3,000 feet per second, so it didn't need to be all that big)

If you are really THAT concerned about aircraft, why not just design a double/quad mount for the LUP-40? It's basically our analog of the Bofors, which was THE main middleweight AA defense of EVERYONE in WW 2

I second this suggestion.

[Brood]

Doom is mostly right.

Think of it as a shotgun blast with significantly longer range, its a solid bullet that up to long range will shatter on impact so rather then a single bullet going through a target you get 100-200 smaller pieces tearing through it at 200 slightly different angles.
An average fragmenting round caused about a 7 inch wound channel through a human body, my round is about double the size of that bullet so thats at least a 12-14 inch wound channel.

It's not a flak round, a flak round does not need impact to explode it just explodes showering an area so the damage is wide spread, a flak round is designed for focussed damage, so where as with 1 flak round only part of it may hit the plane, a frag round the full force hits the plane.
Much greater damage unless you took a direct hit from a flak.

[Doomblade187]

Doom is mostly right.

Think of it as a shotgun blast with significantly longer range, its a solid bullet that up to long range will shatter on impact so rather then a single bullet going through a target you get 100-200 smaller pieces tearing through it at 200 slightly different angles.
An average fragmenting round caused about a 7 inch wound channel through a human body, my round is about double the size of that bullet so thats at least a 12-14 inch wound channel.

It's not a flak round, a flak round does not need impact to explode it just explodes showering an area so the damage is wide spread, a flak round is designed for focussed damage, so where as with 1 flak round only part of it may hit the plane, a frag round the full force hits the plane.
Much greater damage unless you took a direct hit from a flak.

I still support flak, but that's just me. Greater chance of a hit.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

googled what  fragmenting round is. Lol

That's small arms rounds designed to explode on hit, make more damage to soft tissues and to reduce penetration, for situations like firing inside airliners. Great idea to use that for AA

Oh, Brood explained that.... Brood, Don't you see a difference between human body and aircraft?

[mesor]

Actually Ukrainian Brood is correct in using it for AA other then he overlooked that you need to add an armor piercing solid tip.

It's not been done because thats not what it was designed for and because it would not work with todays weapon systems but we have played around with it to test it's effect on harder targets.

If you place an AP tip on the bullet to breach the armor plating so the bullet shatters within the plane it will work beautifully, the fragments will rip the inside to pieces while the tip will punch clean through, giving you the AP punch with the fragmenting damage channel.

[tryrar]

Won't work, since if it's designed to shatter in impact, that's what will happen, solid cap or not. Plus, there's no need to design a completely separate gu system for this, we can just have the TP-1 fire this shrapnel round

[mesor]

It takes a little longer to shatter because of the armored tip giving it enough time to pass inside the plane itself before it shatters outwards to cause the damage, it won't get the first 1-3 inches past the impact zone but everything after will look like swiss cheese if your firing at a high enough velocity.

You'd need to expand the barrel for the larger round and modify it to a quad barrel system for the rate of fire but the TP-1 would be just as effective.

[tryrar]

One other point: the shrapnel rounds are redundant anyways, since the regular rounds of the TP-1 already punch through 20mm of plating. Unless planes start carrying more armor than tanks, the TP-1 is still the best for light AA

[mesor]

The point of a frag round is the internal damage, an equal caliber AP round to the normal Frag round has about a 1.5 inch wound channel compared to the frags 7 inch.
Double those for Broods bullet size and the actual damage of the frag round is at least 3.5-4x that of the AP round.

Your gun works but I'd suggest you modify it for frag rounds, it will give a significant increase to the damage the weapon will cause per hit.

[tryrar]

....you do realize a plane and the human body are two different things right? A frag round very quickly looses penetrating power and would actually do LESS damage to a solid object(say, a plane's wing) than an AP round

[Doomblade187]

....you do realize a plane and the human body are two different things right? A frag round very quickly looses penetrating power and would actually do LESS damage to a solid object(say, a plane's wing) than an AP round

They're used to avoid depressurization on airliners. So yeah, just TP-1s would work pretty well for a short-term solution.

[mesor]

We've tested these on mock up versions of the internal structure of a few different vehicles, it won't damage the metal much after the first 2 inches or so but it will easily cut through tubing and wires which is extremely vulnerable inside the armor as well as extremely important as well as most other internal circuits which tend to have a plastic shell rather then metal.

Sever those parts and the plane will drop out of the sky, but that was why I added including the AP tip, you still get the damage of the AP bullet but you also get the added damage of the fragments upon the more fragile internal parts.

Why settle purely for the AP damage when you can add the very real chance of disabling the plane entirely with a single round?

[tryrar]

We've tested these on mock up versions of the internal structure of a few different vehicles, it won't damage the metal much after the first 2 inches or so but it will easily cut through tubing and wires which is extremely vulnerable inside the armor as well as extremely important as well as most other internal circuits which tend to have a plastic shell rather then metal.

Sever those parts and the plane will drop out of the sky, but that was why I added including the AP tip, you still get the damage of the AP bullet but you also get the added damage of the fragments upon the more fragile internal parts.

Why settle purely for the AP damage when you can add the very real chance of disabling the plane entirely with a single round?

Mainly because we don't need to go for single round annihilation, just hitting a plane with a few ap rounds is enough to ensure we hit something important, like the engine, the radiator, the pilot, things like that. If we want single hit destruction, the LUP-40 is more than enough for that, we don't need crazy frag rounds fired out of massive guns for this.

Ok, here's how AAA worked for the Navy back in WW 2: Multiple mountings of smaller guns to put up a wall of lead and bring a plane down quickly. If you guys need to really improve the AA we have, create quad mounts fo the guns we currently have/ improve the rate of fire on our guns somehow.

[mesor]

It doesn't need a huge gun, it'd need maybe a 10% size increase over the current model, not a significant increase considering the boost to damage.

In ww2 it was also quite common for planes to take direct hits and continue going several times before going down because a small number of bullets can very easily miss the vital parts and a frag round gives you atleast a 4x greater chance of hitting those parts.

So why not just do both? Quad mount the current weapon, give it a minor size increase and use the hybrid AP/Frag rounds.
Take the current strengths and add to them, it can always be designed to use both forms of ammunition without a signifcant problem.