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[Victor6]

Instead of depending on the pathetic scraps of flux and steel the dwarf merchants bring, I've decided to try and harvest a superior source:- The dwarf caravan guards.

Recent attempts to liberate the workers from the outdated imperialist dogma of the mountain homes has however, had mixed results.

- I've constructed the trade depot so that 2 bridges can be raised to block the entrance and the exit forming a nice little watertight box. The eastern wall is made up of floodgates leading to the drainage system. - This consists of first a DAS, then a line of fortifications to prevent items slipping through, and finally the drainage grates.
- The GOOMD lever is pulled, dropping 10-20 stones onto one of the merchants bludgeoning him to death and providing me with a use for microline. This causes the rest of the merchants to pack up their crap and get ready to leave.
- Once they've cleared up the depot, 2 water pumps flood the chamber from the west, drowning the dwarves.
- The eastern floodgates are opened, draining the water out, and washing everything out of the depot towards the fortifications.

- In theory I should be able to cherry pick (reclaim) the items I want, then DAS all the useless mini-forges, corpses, and other garbage the dwarf merchants insist on bringing.

However what I end up with is phantom items. The tiles are often empty except for mud when using loo(k), but the items appear on the stocks list (and if unforbidden are collected and put in the depot). Using the DAS doesn't destroy them either. They just exist in a quantum state until I mass reclaim the area.

Any suggestions how to get around this? I want to avoid items being stuck in the depot, or being dragged back to the stockpile before being sent to a DAS.

[Em3rgency]

Maybe its the water? I had a necromancer die in a pool of water and drop a book. I can see it on my (l)egendary items list, but when I loo(k) at the spot, its just water and mud... -.-

[Telgin]

This is a bug with water flows and items, I believe.  The items are in their tiles, but are hidden for some reason.  What I'd do in your situation is just reclaim the items through the stocks screen.  The dwarves are still able to access them I believe.

[Mr S]

The point, however, is that he doesn't want these items, and they're littering the Stocks screen.

My suggestion would be to make either a one tile dump in the existing washout area that is under the existing DAS, or make another one tile dump very close to the washout area with its own DAS.  This will pull the rubbish items out of the quantum flood masking state.  It will still involve a large number of hauling jobs (unless DFHack autodump is used), but the short hauling distance will at least minimize the time drain impact.

[Catsup]

why not just view the inventory of the guards and manually dump everything? no need to kill them, that results in unwanted ghosts sometimes.

[Centigrade]

why not just view the inventory of the guards and manually dump everything? no need to kill them, that results in unwanted ghosts sometimes.

That solution is too simple, ergo undwarflike.

[Victor6]

It's not the littering that bothers me, it's the inefficiency of have to go through the entire stocks screen to locate the items and unforbidding+(re)dumping entire categories rather than just single items (some of those items could be outside, miles away from the stockpile because their previous owner was eaten by bears). The ideal outcome would be to end up with a single, visible pile of forbidden loot under the DAS for easy manual sorting and disposal.

However, if there's a possible bug at work I'll go with the easier option. I'm sure I've used similar systems for trash compactors (flooding an underground refuse pile instead of a depot) without this issue, but  I've never paid too much attention to that section of the stocks screen.

My suggestion would be to make either a one tile dump in the existing washout area that is under the existing DAS, or make another one tile dump very close to the washout area with its own DAS.  This will pull the rubbish items out of the quantum flood masking state.  It will still involve a large number of hauling jobs (unless DFHack autodump is used), but the short hauling distance will at least minimize the time drain impact.

Thanks. In my case the DAS is 1x6 (so 5 tiles of 'open space'), so this actually works pretty well. Everything that's hidden ends up either in the floodgates or under the DAS anyway They're only dumping the items 1 square or less so it's pretty swift.

....no need to kill them, that results in unwanted ghosts sometimes.

They're loyal servants of the bourgeois dwavern elites, that's reason enough to kill them (plus, this way I can also use it to dispose of any tall vermin who visit). All those dead pack animals are a good source of food, ammo, and leather too.

That damn liaison is next: I'm thinking a glass box. Put in some nice furniture, a years supply of food and drink, and some random weapons. Seal the mayor in there with the liaison until he hopefully goes berserk. If the mayor survives, I'll let him out and the fort will pay attention to his mandates\demands for a year, if he loses; keep adding badgers and see how long the liaison lasts.

Either way, it should make the dining area more interesting.

[Catsup]

well in my biome the dead rise so i need to smash the corpses, which results in un-slabbable caravan guard ghosts (some of which are violent). I guess if you want it all for free then just flood the depot room with water or something and drown everyone, then you can just claim the area and have dwarves haul it in.

i tend to avoid hydro-transport of items because working with water costs your fort in fps.

Honestly though, i dont think its worth the trouble, you can duplicate steel by making and melting chain legs and i had enough masterwork silver serrated discs by the end of my second year to buy the entire caravan anyway.

[i2amroy]

First of all water is really bad at pushing things. It's generally a crapshoot at best, and many times it doesn't work well. Also:

This is a bug with water flows and items, I believe.  The items are in their tiles, but are hidden for some reason.  What I'd do in your situation is just reclaim the items through the stocks screen.  The dwarves are still able to access them I believe.

IIRC once the items disappear due to this bug then they also become immune to all flow effects, which exacerbates the problem caused by water's inability to push objects. The end result is what you are seeing, a bunch of phantom items that must be manually picked up and carried to be destroyed.

Really if you want to utilize a system like that the best bet is to simply remove the water aspect all together. Simply kill the dwarves in a hallway filled with atom smashers as they are leaving/entering instead of at the depot, remove what you want, and then trigger the atom smasher hallway. (Alternatively you could kill them in a hallway with a bridge as a floor, remove what you want, and then drop everything else down into your smasher/disposal method.)

[Victor6]

Really if you want to utilize a system like that the best bet is to simply remove the water aspect all together. Simply kill the dwarves in a hallway filled with atom smashers as they are leaving/entering instead of at the depot, remove what you want, and then trigger the atom smasher hallway. (Alternatively you could kill them in a hallway with a bridge as a floor, remove what you want, and then drop everything else down into your smasher/disposal method.)

Long hallways and ballistas, lines of atom-smashers, pit traps, hordes of captured monsters, they all have the same problem;- Killing them isn't (and hasn't been) the issue, it's where you kill them. The Depot is nice because everyone dies in a 5x5 square rather than being strung out in a long line. Refinement is the key here;- As little unnecessary hauling as possible.

The most recent setup is arranged like this:-

The water tank sits directly below. North is the merchant entrance tunnel, just off-screen the the left is the main stairwell and stockpile access.

Since water apparently sucks for moving items, the other option would be to move the victims first.
First off move the drains to north of the DAS and adding a floodgate between the fortification and grate. then opening up the ceiling above the DAS (I may need to widen the DAS). The pumps don't create vertical pressure, so I'm thinking I could lure the merchants \ guards \ animals in there with the prospect of air (bringing the items with them), then seal it off until they drown and then drain.

[gestahl]

If you only want the metal / magma-proof items why not just use magma instead of water?

[laularukyrumo]

He never implied he only wanted metal goods, just useful items. There are many items the caravans can bring that are not magma-safe and yet incredibly useful.

Personally, if I were attempting this, I would opt for the ballista route. A trade depot constructed as in Figure 1 below allows for the merchants to be congregated into a single tile for easy perforation and item consolidation.

Code: (Figure A) [Select]

OOOOOOOO
BODDDDDO
B_DDDDDF_____________________X
BODDDDDO
OOOBBBOO
O = wall
B = raised bridge
_ = empty space
F = fortification
D = trade depot
X = ballista

[Ace_Warbringer]

If your in a freezeing biome you could use a Degrinchanator wich preserves most items IIRC

[chris_strain]

I've found that using a pump on the level above the depot to pump out the water instead of using grates and drains tends to cause less trouble with the items moving around and disappearing. I can't remember off hand if the pumps ever sucked up and destroyed items, but I usually have a grate over the hole just in case.

[OcelotTango]

I had a different project which I wanted to try which is spoiled by this bug. If sombody knew the most recent version without this bug, I would appreciate a link.