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[Neonivek]

In fact the easiest way to beat the first boss is to play a mage. You can easily beat it by spending all your spell points before it kills you.

While it takes several attacks to beat it through raw hp damage.

[joey4track]

I would kill to be able to dash by double tapping the d-pad instead of using the triggers.

[Neonivek]

I would kill to be able to dash by double tapping the d-pad instead of using the triggers.

Yes... yes I cannot agree enough.

You can REALLY tell this game was made with the Xbox controller in mind.

Since the button lay outs are just crazy and seem like a second thought if you didn't see the Xbox controller layout.

Mind you I can give it a free pass seeing as even Triple-A games like Skyrim seem to forget to make the controls sensible for people using a computer.

[WealthyRadish]

(the weight capacity upgrade cannot be defended as anything but padding, and magic is only upgraded if you have money for nothing else)

is just completely false. Magic is BY FAR the best stat (both damage and mana), with health a close second. Because the best class is dragon, esp. if you get a dwarf dragon and a spell swap pedestal.

I didn't play enough to unlock the dragon class, but I'm assuming it's one of the last purchases, or at least very late. Mage isn't useful enough to justify the upgrades early on, since you could just be playing shinobi or literally any other class, so you'd have to be looking to the long game to put points into magic. The catch is that the eye boss, the skull boss, and the fire boss can be beaten consistently with a low level shinobi or even barbarian, so there isn't much reason to look to the long game (the eye can be beaten on the first run, just use the down attack over it when you need to and hit it from the ground or sides between attacks). By the time you hit the blob and the second stage of the final boss, you're better off with health. So unless you're intending to play an 18 hour game consisting mostly of grinding for gold and rolling characters for dragons, then magic really isn't comparable to health and damage, and my point stands. If I understand how costs scale, it's actually better to just lose the money than put it in magic, if you never intend to use it.

To reiterate, I *personally* didn't think it was a good enough game to justify the 18 hours of gold collection (I may be exaggerating a bit), so my balance discussion is skewed. I think neo made a good point elsewhere about civ V being a game that's easy to waste lots of time on without actually enjoying very much, because of its simplicity. I'd lump this game in with that, and was quick to stop playing when I saw that was how it was meant to be played. I'm sure if they make a sequel it could be much more, but I wouldn't sink much time into it as it is.

[joey4track]

I can't help but to think that mods would make this game a lot more worthwhile dumping time into. Not sure if that's ever going to happen tho. Is this a Game Maker game, anyone know?

[Squill]

Got this game a few days ago, and I think that the lich king is my favorite class. It lets you get both high hp and mana, and do good spell damage. A maxed vampire lich is excellent against bosses.

[Max White]

Spoiler: Ending Goofs (click to show/hide)

Sir Johannes was only listed with one kill, the king, but we know from the tutorial he killed at least two grey knights, and from the journals a ton of monsters. Still a very nice touch though. Also, if Johannes must have given up all his wealth to enter the castle, why was he carrying so much?

[Criptfeind]

Spoiler: Ending Goofs Reply (click to show/hide)

Actually. That one makes sense. Like halfway though his run he discovered that all the furniture and such held money and chicken and he started breaking it. Even though he was doing it mostly for the chicken, I see no reason why he would not also keep the gold. The only king though bothered me as well though.

[Max White]

Spoiler: Reply to Ending Goofs Reply (click to show/hide)

Ah, that makes sense. Should have remembered that. Also, why did the first heir get in free? He didn't have to pay any toll. Even if you have zero gold on you, Charon still turns up to take all of your nothing.

[Stabwound]

In response to a comment of "This game can be finished in an hour without the artificial difficulty"... well, Dark Souls is only about one and a half hours long if you just go for completion and know the game. I just saw a video on YouTube for Mario 64 being beaten in under 1 hour while bypassing all the stars (which are grind, AFAIK). That doesn't make either of those bad. Same here - I enjoy the platforming, the rooms and the bosses. The random characters are a bonus, and after a certain gear/skill level, the upgrades are just the icing on the cake.

Those comparisons aren't even valid.

I don't know Dark Souls, but the difference between that game and Rogue Legacy is that a skilled player could (according to you) finish the game in 1.5 hours. That is simply not possible in Rogue Legacy; not even a TAS player could finish the game with their first character. The game is designed so that's simply not possible; no amount of skill can overcome the design of the game. You have to grind repeatedly in order to make it anywhere.

The SM64 comparison isn't valid, either, because that requires both absurd skill and abusing game-breaking bugs.

This game is just one massive grind. The concept is cool, but a game that is literally impossible for a TAS player to win on a single playthrough is not the kind of game I'm interested in.

[CognitiveDissonance]

In response to a comment of "This game can be finished in an hour without the artificial difficulty"... well, Dark Souls is only about one and a half hours long if you just go for completion and know the game. I just saw a video on YouTube for Mario 64 being beaten in under 1 hour while bypassing all the stars (which are grind, AFAIK). That doesn't make either of those bad. Same here - I enjoy the platforming, the rooms and the bosses. The random characters are a bonus, and after a certain gear/skill level, the upgrades are just the icing on the cake.

Those comparisons aren't even valid.

I don't know Dark Souls, but the difference between that game and Rogue Legacy is that a skilled player could (according to you) finish the game in 1.5 hours. That is simply not possible in Rogue Legacy; not even a TAS player could finish the game with their first character. The game is designed so that's simply not possible; no amount of skill can overcome the design of the game. You have to grind repeatedly in order to make it anywhere.

The SM64 comparison isn't valid, either, because that requires both absurd skill and abusing game-breaking bugs.

This game is just one massive grind. The concept is cool, but a game that is literally impossible for a TAS player to win on a single playthrough is not the kind of game I'm interested in.

What a timely time to check the thread
The comparison is valid, but not from the perspective you are seeing it from. From my perspective, I *do* spend many, many hours grinding in dark souls. I really, really like the game and enjoy taking it very slowly. I think my only full completion took about 26 hours, and many weeks' worth of playtime. Totally worth it. Rogue Legacy falls into the same category as I don't mind the grind at all. I'm not really playing it to beat it, but rather for the entertainment.

As that, it works well. I do see the shortcomings mentioned all over this thread; they just don't affect me, as that's not why I'm playing the game.

Also, as mentioned, it's insanely fun to watch LP videos of. Avaak is doing a fantastic job with those.

[nenjin]

The comparison is valid, but not from the perspective you are seeing it from. From my perspective, I *do* spend many, many hours grinding in dark souls. I really, really like the game and enjoy taking it very slowly. I think my only full completion took about 26 hours, and many weeks' worth of playtime. Totally worth it. Rogue Legacy falls into the same category as I don't mind the grind at all. I'm not really playing it to beat it, but rather for the entertainment.

I grind a ton in Dark Souls too. Here's the difference for me though:

Dark Souls gives me reasons that make the grinding worth it. The drops, the monsters, the bosses, the secrets, the treasures, the progression, the environment....all those keep me grinding when far saner individuals have just said no.

Rogue Legacy, on the other hand, is different. It has all those elements too....but I just don't find them super compelling, because I don't think they're designed very deeply. The drops, at least at the start, aren't interesting. The monsters are one note. The secrets are few and far between, I feel like. I found an invisible wall my very first game, didn't see another one in 50 lives even trying to find them. The treasures....take a while before you're like "oooohhh" "aaaahhhhh". The progression, while being simple, is also very grindy and it doesn't have a lot of trickle down effects that make you think hard about what to get or what it does for you. You spend the majority of your time thinking about how much stuff costs and if you really need it, than mechanically what's going on.The environment is decent, but there's not a ton going on aesthetically that I find interesting and in a 2d side scroller I find boring backgrounds pretty unforgivable. I was like "Aw yeah, 2d sidescroller with kickass backgrounds like Symphony of the Night!" The reality is pretty uninspired. And the whole character art style, from the beginning, wasn't something I was a fan of.

I CAN see the appeal in the difficulty of the platforming and how that dovetails the grinding in an enjoyable way. Just not for me. The action doesn't really thrill me so the difficulty doesn't appeal to my sense of challenge. I'm not saying it isn't appealing or doesn't appeal to some people's sense of challenge...it just doesn't to mine. I sort of need the game's supporting features to make me interested in the main action, and I feel like most of the supporting features are adequate at best, minimal at worst. RL feels a lot like an arcade game to me, which is why I have a hard time getting invested in what it asks me to do.

[Hugehead]

In response to a comment of "This game can be finished in an hour without the artificial difficulty"... well, Dark Souls is only about one and a half hours long if you just go for completion and know the game. I just saw a video on YouTube for Mario 64 being beaten in under 1 hour while bypassing all the stars (which are grind, AFAIK). That doesn't make either of those bad. Same here - I enjoy the platforming, the rooms and the bosses. The random characters are a bonus, and after a certain gear/skill level, the upgrades are just the icing on the cake.

Those comparisons aren't even valid.

I don't know Dark Souls, but the difference between that game and Rogue Legacy is that a skilled player could (according to you) finish the game in 1.5 hours. That is simply not possible in Rogue Legacy; not even a TAS player could finish the game with their first character. The game is designed so that's simply not possible; no amount of skill can overcome the design of the game. You have to grind repeatedly in order to make it anywhere.

The SM64 comparison isn't valid, either, because that requires both absurd skill and abusing game-breaking bugs.

This game is just one massive grind. The concept is cool, but a game that is literally impossible for a TAS player to win on a single playthrough is not the kind of game I'm interested in.

I think the issue bigger than the grind preventing TASs is the random nature of the game, with the room placement being random as it is I don't see how you could record a movie of it without using and subsequently injecting the same seed each time while constructing your TAS. Another issue that comes up is exactly how deterministic the game is, if the AI of some of the enemies could react differently to the same input it could absolutely crush any likelihood of this this game being TAS. Aside from those 2 issues though, I'm 100% sure this game could be TAS'd on the first run with very little difficulty without even being hit, provided someone put in the effort to do so.

[Max White]

That is simply not possible in Rogue Legacy; not even a TAS player could finish the game with their first character.

I'm pretty sure this has been done. A few people have claimed a zero death run, and a video has come up of a level 0 beating the boss.
While it is true that most people have nowhere near the level of skill required to do this and end up grinding a lot... Isn't the same true of dark souls?

[Neonivek]

No... it is actually impossible to finish the game with their first character.

Since he dies immediately at the start.