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Author Topic: Dwarven Eugenics  (Read 7398 times)

Ruhn

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Re: Dwarven Eugenics
« Reply #15 on: April 17, 2013, 11:21:36 am »

Here's a thread from a while back which deals with how doarfs pick someone for romance & marriage.  Could be useful for getting the strongest/tallest ones to cooperate.
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=117274.0

CognitiveDissonance

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Re: Dwarven Eugenics
« Reply #16 on: April 17, 2013, 12:49:20 pm »

Unless I'm mistaken, personality traits affect this. Keep the least sociable ones out of the experiment, as it will hurt you in the long run.
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Dwarven War Boar

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Re: Dwarven Eugenics
« Reply #17 on: April 17, 2013, 01:13:07 pm »

I think atom smashing, as long as there are no witnesses, can kill dwarves without unhappy thoughts. 

Just tested this by atom smashing a child and the parent got the "lost a child to tragedy recently" thought.

Arranging dwarf marriages is rather time-consuming:
...
But if you want to 'breed' dwarfs with desired traits, you won't be looking for lovers, but rather for compatible individuals, regardless of relationship status. And what i've seen suggests that those will have to move through the ranks up to 'friends' before they can become lovers. My case was made even more complicated by the male being paraplegic, which slows all a dwarf's actions to about 30% of normal - this obviously kept him out of the room on his 'get fresh socks' errands and the like for exceptionally long times. I wouldn't be surprised if healthy dwarfs would get from passing acquaintance to married in two years or so.

Yeah, this would probably be a rather long term project though so I don't mind each pairing taking some months, but again in all of the threads I'm searching for coaxing marriage (sounds much nicer than forcing, doesn't it) I haven't heard of it taking years. I'll try to keep them healthy though.

Here's a thread from a while back which deals with how doarfs pick someone for romance & marriage.  Could be useful for getting the strongest/tallest ones to cooperate.
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=117274.0

Interesting read, and seems to be where much of the information about marriage derives from.

There are still a few questions I've asked previously that I'd like answers to, but I can see a decent strategy taking shape. Something I'm not sure about is how the height modifiers work as I've seen a couple of conflicting reports. The wiki "size" article appears to give the impression that a "tall" dwarf is the tallest dwarf, and a "fat" dwarf is the broadest. It appears there are no varying degrees of height, and while this would make things much easier in terms of simply breeding for height and width, I've seen players stating otherwise. Does anyone know anything about this?

As far as the dwarf ethnicity side of things goes, I think the first thing I'll be doing there will be eliminating "huge swinging earlobes" from the gene pool  :P.
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i2amroy

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Re: Dwarven Eugenics
« Reply #18 on: April 17, 2013, 02:08:09 pm »

There are still a few questions I've asked previously that I'd like answers to, but I can see a decent strategy taking shape. Something I'm not sure about is how the height modifiers work as I've seen a couple of conflicting reports. The wiki "size" article appears to give the impression that a "tall" dwarf is the tallest dwarf, and a "fat" dwarf is the broadest. It appears there are no varying degrees of height, and while this would make things much easier in terms of simply breeding for height and width, I've seen players stating otherwise. Does anyone know anything about this?
Descriptions are based on the modifier range for the specific creature. Dwarves, for example, have [BODY_APPEARANCE_MODIFIER:HEIGHT:75:95:98:100:102:105:125] and thus dwarves with the tallest height description will have heights ranging from 105% to 125% of the default dwarven size. If you want a more specific size reading you will need to turn to a different program (I think the Splinterz branch of therapist might be able to do this, but I'm not 100% sure about that).
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Dwarven War Boar

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Re: Dwarven Eugenics
« Reply #19 on: April 17, 2013, 02:14:58 pm »

There are still a few questions I've asked previously that I'd like answers to, but I can see a decent strategy taking shape. Something I'm not sure about is how the height modifiers work as I've seen a couple of conflicting reports. The wiki "size" article appears to give the impression that a "tall" dwarf is the tallest dwarf, and a "fat" dwarf is the broadest. It appears there are no varying degrees of height, and while this would make things much easier in terms of simply breeding for height and width, I've seen players stating otherwise. Does anyone know anything about this?
Descriptions are based on the modifier range for the specific creature. Dwarves, for example, have [BODY_APPEARANCE_MODIFIER:HEIGHT:75:95:98:100:102:105:125] and thus dwarves with the tallest height description will have heights ranging from 105% to 125% of the default dwarven size. If you want a more specific size reading you will need to turn to a different program (I think the Splinterz branch of therapist might be able to do this, but I'm not 100% sure about that).

I did a search through the raws but apparently missed this, thanks. And yes, I was also worried about finding a way to read exactly *how* tall they are considering how this is never really available in game, so I'll look into this.
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Telgin

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Re: Dwarven Eugenics
« Reply #20 on: April 17, 2013, 02:25:47 pm »

If you want to skip the complications of arranging marriages, you can force it with this DFHack script I wrote: Relationship Scripts

You can marry any two fort citizens together with it.  You can also use DFusion's impregnate tool to immediately make females pregnant and give birth in 10 game ticks.
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Dwarven War Boar

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Re: Dwarven Eugenics
« Reply #21 on: April 17, 2013, 03:54:27 pm »

If you want to skip the complications of arranging marriages, you can force it with this DFHack script I wrote: Relationship Scripts

You can marry any two fort citizens together with it.  You can also use DFusion's impregnate tool to immediately make females pregnant and give birth in 10 game ticks.

A nice tool that will no doubt come in handy, though I won't lie, a part of me was very much warming to the idea of a whole fort dedicated to creating larger, stronger and faster dwarves with "breeding rooms" everywhere. Oh well, I suppose I could explain it away as mandatory couplings falling under my dictatorial god powers somehow.

I tested the command out and was pleased to find it worked on a widower, although the dead spouse (ghost) was still listed as her husband, while the militia captain I married her to had her listed as wife without consequence. I'm guessing this area is particularly buggy. The divorce command seems useful also, which means I won't need to kill anyone who has outlived their genetic usefulness and is wasting a perfectly good partner.

You mention that it shouldn't be done, but out of interest, what would actually happen if I did marry dwarves to multiple spouses? For the experiment it could potentially make things a lot easier but I'm going to imagine it makes DF implode.

Considering how it works on anyone, this would be a great help to combat the decade gap issue, and I'm guessing could also result in some particularly whacky family trees if a few closely related individuals turn out to be ideally matched. Frankly, I think what few DF morals I had left disappeared by the time I was posting about catapulting children into magma.

I also did a search and looked at the DFusion wiki but couldn't find anything about the impregnate tool.

Descriptions are based on the modifier range for the specific creature. Dwarves, for example, have [BODY_APPEARANCE_MODIFIER:HEIGHT:75:95:98:100:102:105:125] and thus dwarves with the tallest height description will have heights ranging from 105% to 125% of the default dwarven size. If you want a more specific size reading you will need to turn to a different program (I think the Splinterz branch of therapist might be able to do this, but I'm not 100% sure about that).

So I've looked at Splinterz' version of DT and it looks like a great utility, and allows me to look at traits and attributes, so if I really wanted to go overboard with this I could breed for the likes of strength and toughness much easier and eliminate weakness more efficiently. But sadly I can't find anything to do with the height and width of the individual dwarf.

Speaking of attributes such as high toughness and strength, I'm assuming there is a limit to how many one dwarf can have?
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Telgin

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Re: Dwarven Eugenics
« Reply #22 on: April 17, 2013, 05:01:22 pm »

You mention that it shouldn't be done, but out of interest, what would actually happen if I did marry dwarves to multiple spouses? For the experiment it could potentially make things a lot easier but I'm going to imagine it makes DF implode.

It misbehaves, but won't crash the game.  The bottom line is that what you see on the 'r'elationships screen is not what the game checks when it comes time to decide if someone is married or in love.  It's just a list of historical figure links of various types, so it's more than happy to have 100+ spouses listed with no consequence.

There is a field in the relationship struct of a unit which tells the game who their spouse is.  It's a single number set to -1 if they aren't married, or the unit id of their spouse if they are.  So ultimately, they can have only one spouse.  This is the number the game checks to see if a female will get pregnant, if it should generate spouse related thoughts, if they sleep in the same bed, and so on.

If you run the tool on a particular dwarf twice, it just overwrites this with the most recent spouse.  So it will show several spouses in the 'r'elationships screen, but they'll only really be married to the last one you assigned them to.

Edit: Do note, however, that several women can be married to the same man and get pregnant from him.  He'll only get thoughts related to one of them and will consider himself married only to the last one you assigned, but they will all think they're married to him and have his babies.  At least... in theory, that should work.

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Considering how it works on anyone, this would be a great help to combat the decade gap issue, and I'm guessing could also result in some particularly whacky family trees if a few closely related individuals turn out to be ideally matched. Frankly, I think what few DF morals I had left disappeared by the time I was posting about catapulting children into magma.

This tool will probably let you do things that would get the topic locked or worse, as far as marriage and family members go... tread carefully.

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I also did a search and looked at the DFusion wiki but couldn't find anything about the impregnate tool.

I can't remember for sure, but I think from the DFHack menu, run dfusion, then pick option 2 (misc tools), then 6 (impregnate).

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Speaking of attributes such as high toughness and strength, I'm assuming there is a limit to how many one dwarf can have?

I don't think so.  The game just generates each attribute separately within the bell curve, as far as I know.  I've seen a few truly exceptional ones, and a few truly lousy ones.  Just luck of the draw.  There is a cap on an individual's attributes, but that's different, and is just related to the max that they can improve an individual attribute to.

Edit: See note above about multiple wives.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2013, 05:06:02 pm by Telgin »
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Dwarven War Boar

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Re: Dwarven Eugenics
« Reply #23 on: April 17, 2013, 06:20:33 pm »

Edit: Do note, however, that several women can be married to the same man and get pregnant from him.  He'll only get thoughts related to one of them and will consider himself married only to the last one you assigned, but they will all think they're married to him and have his babies.  At least... in theory, that should work.

A lot of interesting information there, and that will probably be very useful in terms of speeding things up.

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This tool will probably let you do things that would get the topic locked or worse, as far as marriage and family members go... tread carefully.

Ha, I don't suppose it could actually be locked because I mentioned that it makes inbreeding possible in a fictional eugenics program? I certainly hope that it's clear nobody was actually advocating such a disgusting practice.

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I can't remember for sure, but I think from the DFHack menu, run dfusion, then pick option 2 (misc tools), then 6 (impregnate).

I'll look into this.

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I don't think so.  The game just generates each attribute separately within the bell curve, as far as I know.  I've seen a few truly exceptional ones, and a few truly lousy ones.  Just luck of the draw.  There is a cap on an individual's attributes, but that's different, and is just related to the max that they can improve an individual attribute to.

This means there are a lot of possibilities and I could theoretically create some very interesting dwarves, that's great.

Edit: I'm still looking for a reliable way of reading height percentages. I'm going to continue the search, but if anyone knows anything that could help, that would be great. The other thing I'm doing is browsing the raws for appearance modifiers so I can come up with some basic idea of what to aim for. Looks like large hooked noses are also going to be joining huge swinging earlobes as far as trait elimination goes.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2013, 06:48:31 pm by Dwarven War Boar »
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Telgin

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Re: Dwarven Eugenics
« Reply #24 on: April 17, 2013, 07:36:01 pm »

Ha, I don't suppose it could actually be locked because I mentioned that it makes inbreeding possible in a fictional eugenics program? I certainly hope that it's clear nobody was actually advocating such a disgusting practice.

Nah, not likely.  The potential is just there.  The tool doesn't do any checks for family relations, gender, age...

I'm reasonably sure females won't ever get pregnant until they're adults at least.
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Saraias

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Re: Dwarven Eugenics
« Reply #25 on: April 17, 2013, 10:11:42 pm »

I've continued my relationships and family line experiments that I first reported in the thread linked above. I have some notion that I'll necro my own thread with an update at some point in the future, but haven't organized my notes; for the purpose of this reply I'm not going to pull them out for reference, so feel free to treat my assertions here as unsupported (although I will stand by them).

All my forts now have "socialization chambers" for relationship development. Mostly, I have focused on bloodline preservation and diversification and not eugenics. (I very much look forward to the post-worldgen population continuity aspects of the upcoming release.) I have found no exceptions for the 10-year rule in terms of mate eligibility, either in pairings I've arranged or in historical figures. Without modding dwarves or using a hack like the one provided up-thread, eugenics may best start with the children of migrants and founders, since this provides a sizable population of individuals clustered in similar age groups.

Although the fort used in my first experiment included a number of unmarried migrants of different ages, it was a relatively mature fort (20 years since founding). The subjects who had been born there had developed social skills as dwarf children tend to do; the others had all had at least some time to build up social skills. In a later fort, I found that marriages were a bit harder to arrange among some personalities when the candidates had low social skills. In two notable cases, I paired up dwarves, they spent over a year in their "socialization chamber" and did not become lovers - a rare phenomenon in my efforts. The first couple included a dwarf who "is incredibly frank and candid in dealings with others" and one who "believes that some deception is necessary in relationships with others;" the other paired one who "has a profound understanding of his own feelings" and one who "is mostly unaware of her own emotions and rarely expresses them." The wiki "Personality trait" article lists these as opposite extremes, or close to them, on the same personality trait. I let those dwarves free, and a few years later they had higher social skills, were the only age-eligible partners for each other, were re-burrowed for socialization, and became lovers in 5-6 months.

As for the eugenics question, I don't see any reliable inheritance of personality traits or likes. (I do have one lineage I'm quite fond of, founded by a hunter/weaponsmith and a captain of the guard who both liked crossbows, who had 14 children who all liked crossbows and universally married bowyers, hunters, smiths and marksdwarves, having many grandchildren who often but not always liked crossbows. I think that was a fluke.)

Skin, hair, and eye color all pass on to offspring without dominance. At the time of a baby's birth, it will have one of these traits from one parent. A savescum and reload can end up with the other parent's trait. Hair's trickier. Dwarves who have the "head shaved bald" appearance appear to have children whose hair color is unspecified.

My favored civilization in the world I've played for most of a year has a lot going for it, but is homogeneous in appearance. Their eye colors vary (with aquamarine most common), but they all have pink skin and burnt umber hair (save the bloodlines who've lost hair color). The exception, interestingly, came in the form of the original king consort and his brother, who had pale brown skin, and this has grown to be a sign of royal pedigree in my perceptions of the Handles of Mortality.

To introduce more genetic diversity, I founded a fort with dwarves from another civilization (The Equal Merchants), who are wildly diverse. I had a starting seven with six different skin tones and five different hair colors, plus some interesting eye shades. I then used dfhack to "retire" the fort via adventure mode, and reclaimed it with a party from the Handles of Mortality. A couple of the Equal Merchants married each other, but I paired the rest with Handles citizens. The Equal Merchants retained their original citizenship, incidentally, but this didn't impede cross-civ marriages, and their children are full citizens of the Handles. Not only did I introduce some more diverse appearances (which a eugenics program could take the other direction by eliminating undesired traits), but I also found that religiosity is partially inherited. The children of the Equal Merchant couples alone worship Equal Merchants' gods, plus randomly (?) assigned gods of the Handles of Mortality. Children of mixed-civ couples were born worshiping the gods their parents most fervently followed (from either pantheon) - plus the occasional one from the Handles pantheon they picked for themselves.

I have observed that it seems that *attributes* do seem to derive commonly from parents. It may well be possible to arrange for parents whose kids will favor "unbreakable will" or are "virtually never sick" - but it could be that my observation of trends is coincidental. (Like the Crossbow Clan.) I haven't tried breeding for that myself - my approach is much more "these dwarves are great friends, so I'll pair off a couple of their kids" or "only the progeny of war heroes or nobles/administrators are good enough for the neurotic baroness' children!" or "the children of great artists, or who had childhood fey moods shall marry into the royal family!"

I have no useful info to offer on the breeding of tall/fat or short/emaciated bloodlines.
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Dwarven War Boar

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Re: Dwarven Eugenics
« Reply #26 on: April 18, 2013, 01:58:09 pm »

Interesting post. You mention your first experiment being in a mature fort, I was also considering whether to begin again and set out a new fort for the experiment or whether to just use an old one I no longer need for the easier access to modifiers. And it's good you've further supported your previous assertions. I'll have to think about the low skilled aspect, and because I don't really want to go into cheating territory I'm having to consider whether I should only use the marriage tool to bypass the decade problem and for the purposes of divorce and remarriage. I think the age preference bracket should be bigger anyway in a creature that can live to well over 150 years old considering some of the strange things we get in real life and even had in the medieval era. I have a feeling this may be hardcoded though, otherwise I'd look into changing it myself.

Considering the mixed results of your personality trait inheritance, I'll have to keep an eye out for what happens to my dwarves. And regarding homogenous civilisations, I've found similar on a few forts. One of my latest which I've kept running for a few decades now seems to have developed a majority population with emerald eyes and white hair for example, when eyes appeared to be somewhat random before and I ran into grey hair much more. But as far as my ethnicity experiment goes, I feel it would be even more interesting if I aspired to eliminate certain traits entirely and made others universal, for example if I wanted most dwarves to have long heads and narrow ears, etc, instead of just focussing on the obvious skin, hair and eye colouring which seems prone to automatically fall into homogeneity when given enough time. I'll also look into the attributes side of things.

On the subject of fat and thin, I read recently that fat dwarves naturally have a greater potential in combat as it acts as another "layer", but are also hideously vulnerable to heat and dragon fire.

-

Anyway, I'm thinking of compiling a list of information I could do with for the sake of ease, but at the top of which I still need some reliable way of reading dwarf height.

Edit: I'm sure I must be missing something in Splinterz' DT, because height and width seem to be the only pieces of information that it won't let you read  ???.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2013, 02:04:09 pm by Dwarven War Boar »
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Dwarven War Boar

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Re: Dwarven Eugenics
« Reply #27 on: April 19, 2013, 07:13:27 pm »

Bump for information.
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Broseph Stalin

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Re: Dwarven Eugenics
« Reply #28 on: April 19, 2013, 11:41:48 pm »

By the time a fort gets old enough for a child to reach adulthood I usually abandon it to FPS death.

Dwarven War Boar

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Re: Dwarven Eugenics
« Reply #29 on: April 20, 2013, 04:35:34 am »

That's quite a shame really, unless you work very fast and have minimal fortress goals.*

I'm quickly coming to the conclusion that there is currently no way at all for me to read individual dwarf height, so I'm not sure where to take the experiment from here.

*Edit: What am I talking about? It's 12 years, I suppose most people are normally bored by then.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2013, 04:39:04 am by Dwarven War Boar »
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