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Author Topic: Bombs explode during Boston Marathon- Suspect Killed, Suspect Caught  (Read 33124 times)

Bauglir

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Re: Bombs explode during Boston Marathon- Suspect Killed, Suspect Caught
« Reply #480 on: April 20, 2013, 01:13:58 pm »

Yes, all those things I listed in my post that you also listed were bad. They weren't what you were talking about.

You were talking about the death of one of the suspects. That might be the free reign to kill suspects part, except you seem to be completely unable to understand that "Dude Begins Firefight With The Use Of A Stolen Gun" is far removed from "Cops Begin Firefight With Random Armed Dude" on the Acceptability of Police Actions Spectrum. Bringing him in alive would have been better, yes. I don't think many people in this thread have actually argued otherwise. It would also have been impossible to orchestrate - it could only have happened by luck at that point, and it didn't.

Wait, I thought he was actually a campus police officer? That was killed? Was I wrong?
Looks like I was wrong, actually. He was a campus police officer. I misremembered something or other.
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In the days when Sussman was a novice, Minsky once came to him as he sat hacking at the PDP-6.
“What are you doing?”, asked Minsky. “I am training a randomly wired neural net to play Tic-Tac-Toe” Sussman replied. “Why is the net wired randomly?”, asked Minsky. “I do not want it to have any preconceptions of how to play”, Sussman said.
Minsky then shut his eyes. “Why do you close your eyes?”, Sussman asked his teacher.
“So that the room will be empty.”
At that moment, Sussman was enlightened.

Loud Whispers

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Re: Bombs explode during Boston Marathon- Suspect Killed, Suspect Caught
« Reply #481 on: April 20, 2013, 01:32:13 pm »

Yes, all those things I listed in my post that you also listed were bad. They weren't what you were talking about.

You were talking about the death of one of the suspects. That might be the free reign to kill suspects part, except you seem to be completely unable to understand that "Dude Begins Firefight With The Use Of A Stolen Gun" is far removed from "Cops Begin Firefight With Random Armed Dude" on the Acceptability of Police Actions Spectrum.
>>>
Quote
If you engage in a shootout with police, you deserve what's coming to you.
Excusing vague threats of what people deserve is inhuman.
I'm more concerned with the reaction, as I said.

Owlbread

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Re: Bombs explode during Boston Marathon- Suspect Killed, Suspect Caught
« Reply #482 on: April 20, 2013, 01:45:54 pm »

"If you engage in a shootout with the police, you deserve what's coming to you."

Tell that to most of the popular rebel heroes of the world. I'm not comparing the Tsarnaevs to rebel heroes like James Connolly or Jean Moulin, but if you start making up dangerous maxims like that you'd best take care.
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tryrar

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Re: Bombs explode during Boston Marathon- Suspect Killed, Suspect Caught
« Reply #483 on: April 20, 2013, 01:57:33 pm »

"If you engage in a shootout with the police, you deserve what's coming to you."

Tell that to most of the popular rebel heroes of the world. I'm not comparing the Tsarnaevs to rebel heroes like James Connolly or Jean Moulin, but if you start making up dangerous maxims like that you'd best take care.

Owlbread, what we are saying is if you open fire on the police, you shouldn't be surprised when they return fire. It's not like there are very many practical or easy non-lethal responses at that point...
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misko27

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Re: Bombs explode during Boston Marathon- Suspect Killed, Suspect Caught
« Reply #484 on: April 20, 2013, 01:59:07 pm »

I am going to state the obvious.

Shut up.

Does this look like the politics thread? Is Glyph Graph a Fearful Jesuit? No!

Frankly, I'm more interested in how this will affect US-Russia relations. I bet the leader of the Chechans are sending envoys right now saying "we had NOTHING to do with that. Not a thing. Nope."

So anyway, how is the bomber doing?
« Last Edit: April 20, 2013, 02:01:19 pm by misko27 »
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Bauglir

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Re: Bombs explode during Boston Marathon- Suspect Killed, Suspect Caught
« Reply #485 on: April 20, 2013, 02:02:10 pm »

I suppose, then, what needs to be asked is whether or not we're talking about intelligence or morality.

That said, Loud Whispers, that still wasn't what you were spending most of your posts talking about. I apologize for missing that, but

He was shooting back, LW. The situation is in no way comparable to the police shooting up a car because it has the same colour as the suspects. In fact, this was made clear after greatorder asked his question, so I'm not even sure why you wrote that post unless you were trying to drum up some fight.
But it is comparable to police searching for a murder suspect shooting and killing an armed civilian who later turned out to be innocent. Which was included.

is not true, except in that everything is technically comparable. That kind of claim is what I, and I think most people arguing against you, have been objecting to. Many of us are pretty on board with the politics and social liberty parts of what you're saying. We're just saying that the guy dying in a firefight he started, by using a weapon stolen from a police officer, whom he killed, is one of the few parts of the situation not contributing to the potential for dystopia.

I think this is actually still pretty on topic, though, so I'm going to post it anyway, orders to shut up be damned.
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In the days when Sussman was a novice, Minsky once came to him as he sat hacking at the PDP-6.
“What are you doing?”, asked Minsky. “I am training a randomly wired neural net to play Tic-Tac-Toe” Sussman replied. “Why is the net wired randomly?”, asked Minsky. “I do not want it to have any preconceptions of how to play”, Sussman said.
Minsky then shut his eyes. “Why do you close your eyes?”, Sussman asked his teacher.
“So that the room will be empty.”
At that moment, Sussman was enlightened.

smirk

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Re: Bombs explode during Boston Marathon- Suspect Killed, Suspect Caught
« Reply #486 on: April 20, 2013, 02:23:59 pm »

Chillness levels sound drastically low in here; careful with that.

Here! On a lighter note: http://www.mzv.cz/washington/en/czech_u_s_relations/news/statement_of_the_ambassador_of_the_czech.html
Or, well, actually that's probably just depressing in a different way. But still.
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his moist amphibian skin
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Scoops Novel

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Re: Bombs explode during Boston Marathon- Suspect Killed, Suspect Caught
« Reply #487 on: April 20, 2013, 02:46:02 pm »

Bay12, you make me sad. To the mines with you!

Anyway, it disturbs me that the relation the elder bomber had with his younger brother is simlar to the one I have with my little sister (of course, without the psychotic tendencies.)

Crimes don't equal madness. The Freudian excuse bears too much weight for that.

I am going to state the obvious.

Shut up.

Does this look like the politics thread? Is Glyph Graph a Fearful Jesuit? No!

Frankly, I'm more interested in how this will affect US-Russia relations. I bet the leader of the Chechans are sending envoys right now saying "we had NOTHING to do with that. Not a thing. Nope."

So anyway, how is the bomber doing?


And as for this statement, read your above quote. That's what owlbread is complaining about. Enough with the loaded language. I see what i generally assume to be light beer socialism on these boards, and then i see vapid attacks and counterarguments for not considering others points. I agree with yours, but it applies to you as much as everyone else.

How are the people on site taking it? I heard news about celebrations, but i thought it was a bit early for that.
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scriver

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Re: Bombs explode during Boston Marathon- Suspect Killed, Suspect Caught
« Reply #488 on: April 20, 2013, 03:18:28 pm »

"Light beer socialism"?
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Bombs explode during Boston Marathon- Suspect Killed, Suspect Caught
« Reply #489 on: April 20, 2013, 03:20:40 pm »

"Light beer socialism"?
I think he means that the general political consensus on this forum is one of social democracy, but not a full blown socialist state. That said, this is Novel, so I can never be certain.
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Flying Dice

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Re: Bombs explode during Boston Marathon- Suspect Killed, Suspect Caught
« Reply #490 on: April 20, 2013, 03:21:41 pm »

"Light beer socialism"?
I seem to recall Novel complaining on an earlier occasion about people who have progressive mindsets but don't dedicate their lives to following through on them. I think it was him, anyhow.
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Descan

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Re: Bombs explode during Boston Marathon- Suspect Killed, Suspect Caught
« Reply #491 on: April 20, 2013, 03:27:37 pm »

Might have been Neonevik. *shrug* N-something.
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Scoops Novel

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Re: Bombs explode during Boston Marathon- Suspect Killed, Suspect Caught
« Reply #492 on: April 20, 2013, 03:32:13 pm »

I did comment on the hypocrisy of apparently holding such views but never acting on them. I could care less for communism, if this post
"Light beer socialism"?
I think he means that the general political consensus on this forum is one of social democracy, but not a full blown socialist state. That said, this is Novel, so I can never be certain.

is talking about that. Far too "look upon my works and tremble" for my taste. It's an unavoidable comment when you have threads on building gaming pc's, with the laptop I'm typing this on only tenuously justifiable, especially if i don't get mileage out of it.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Bombs explode during Boston Marathon- Suspect Killed, Suspect Caught
« Reply #493 on: April 20, 2013, 03:53:13 pm »

I am going to state the obvious.

Shut up.

Does this look like the politics thread? Is Glyph Graph a Fearful Jesuit? No!

The impacts of the Boston bombing are far more reaching than discussing the death toll and the terrorists in question since nothing new has come of it.
It may be seen as insensitive, but my main concern right now is what new abusable powers are going to be pushed for in the renewed national security initiative that's likely to begin tomorrow.
This is far more relevant and belongs in this thread more than any other.

Chillness levels sound drastically low in here; careful with that.
It's only as hostile as you need read into it. Try reading everything as if Morgan Freeman were narrating it; if it still sounds hostile, it probably is.

I suppose, then, what needs to be asked is whether or not we're talking about intelligence or morality.

That said, Loud Whispers, that still wasn't what you were spending most of your posts talking about.
Pretty much everything of what I've said has either been information, blind speculation or concerns about the madness of the reaction.
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I've not criticized the actions of the Leos for shooting someone who very much was trying to shoot them.


Spoiler (click to show/hide)
That instead of giving someone who has already fled the chance to surrender it's better to encourage the Leos to get vindictive and give the suspect "what they deserve"?
Because then they don't answer for their crimes, no one finds out why they did it and instead of being locked up and forgotten they are killed in an unforgettable lockdown that spans an entire city, transformed into an ascended martyr. And that's if they're guilty of the bombing and only them.
The example of the armed civilian I gave is comparable in that the police assumed the suspect was guilty and opened fire. The differences end where the reactions begin. From the Boston police commissioner Ed Davis's report, there was not an indication that they tried to apprehend the suspect before the shooting exchange began, no calls for surrender or promises of safety until a trial could be taken place.
I stress that it is not the fact that the Leos shot someone covered in blood who was firing back at them which has gotten me riled, it's that people who were watching this happen were willing the police to, in ominous terms, give the suspect lots of toasted lead with jam and butter.

Owlbread

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Re: Bombs explode during Boston Marathon- Suspect Killed, Suspect Caught
« Reply #494 on: April 20, 2013, 04:38:43 pm »

When Dzhokhar was captured I was struck by the outpouring of nationalism. I watched people chanting "USA, USA, USA", waving American flags and guys on video camera saying how everyone just felt so proud to be American. Well, I don't know about you chaps but I'd just be thankful that I was alive and my family was safe. Whether I'd be American or not doesn't matter. Nationalism in the USA is the strongest I have seen in the 21st century.
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