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[Owlbread]

That Chechnya wants to become a breakaway state doesn't mean a god damn thing, Owlbread. The area is a hotbed for breeding Islamists like these guys.

It does mean a god damned thing, my good sir. The whole thing is tied up in Dokka Umarov, former president of the Ichkerian government in exile, and his declaration of the Caucasian Emirate. Even before that we should consider the Islamisation of the Chechen independence movement. It's the very same fighters who would have fought for their homeland 20 years ago are now fighting for Allah. In the North Caucasus, you will find that Russophobia, ethnic nationalism, separatism and Islamism are all tied together.

Also - Islamists though they were, the brothers were still Chechen nationalists, or at least had Chechen nationalist sentiments. That is clear from their comments in the past.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

It does mean a god damned thing, my good sir. The whole thing is tied up in Dokka Umarov, former president of the Ichkerian government in exile, and his declaration of the Caucasian Emirate. Even before that we should consider the Islamisation of the Chechen independence movement. It's the very same fighters who would have fought for their homeland 20 years ago are now fighting for Allah.

Excuses, excuses...

It's irrelevant to this. So maybe the Chechen separatists weren't originally Islamist. Nothing to do with the fighting today, and certainly nothing to do with these bombers.

Blowing up Americans has nothing to do with Chechnya at all. It is pretty clearly religiously motivated, given that.

[RedKing]

It does mean a god damned thing, my good sir. The whole thing is tied up in Dokka Umarov, former president of the Ichkerian government in exile, and his declaration of the Caucasian Emirate. Even before that we should consider the Islamisation of the Chechen independence movement. It's the very same fighters who would have fought for their homeland 20 years ago are now fighting for Allah.

Excuses, excuses...

It's irrelevant to this. So maybe the Chechen separatists weren't originally Islamist. Nothing to do with the fighting today, and certainly nothing to do with these bombers.

I still haven't seen anything to indicate this attack was motivated by Islam.

[Owlbread]

Excuses, excuses...

It's irrelevant to this. So maybe the Chechen separatists weren't originally Islamist. Nothing to do with the fighting today, and certainly nothing to do with these bombers.

These bombers were both Islamists and also Chechen nationalists. The whole Islamism/Chechen (sometimes North Caucasian) Nationalism thing has become two sides of the same coin. It's a pursuit of ways that are considered Chechen in opposition to the imposed Russian culture. You could even say that the Islamisation of independence movements in the Middle East is quite similar to the relationship Communism and Marxism had to separatist movements in the 20th century.

If you still doubt the whole Islamism thing, I can show you Tamerlan's youtube account.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

I still haven't seen anything to indicate this attack was motivated by Islam.

Islamism and the USA do not mix. While we may not know for certain, it is a safe bet given their expressed opinions.

These bombers were both Islamists and also Chechen nationalists. The whole Islamism/Chechen (sometimes North Caucasian) Nationalism thing has become two sides of the same coin.

If you still doubt the whole Islamism thing, I can show you Tamerlan's youtube account.

That still does not establish a relation to these events.

[Zangi]

That Chechnya wants to become a breakaway state doesn't mean a god damn thing, Owlbread. The area is a hotbed for breeding Islamists like these guys.

It does mean a god damned thing, my good sir. The whole thing is tied up in Dokka Umarov, former president of the Ichkerian government in exile, and his declaration of the Caucasian Emirate. Even before that we should consider the Islamisation of the Chechen independence movement. It's the very same fighters who would have fought for their homeland 20 years ago are now fighting for Allah.

Also - Islamists though they were, the brothers were still Chechen nationalists, or at least had Chechen nationalist sentiments. That is clear from their comments in the past.

I'm of the opinion that US Foreign Policy is going to continue favoring Russia keeping their thumb over Chechnya.  If we look at the Middle East as any indication, they don't want to give any other place a chance to become another theocratic state... by keeping the status quo. 

So yea, I guess it does mean something... just not better times, the way I see it.

FAKEEDIT: holy postings batman

[Owlbread]

That still does not establish a relation to these events.

Think of it like this - how do people become politicised? They get politicised, usually, by a big idea, or "big ideas". In the case of these two guys it was probably the Chechen independence movement at first, considering they grew up during the Chechen wars etc etc. Tamerlan was born right before the start of the first Chechen war, I hear, so he was actually born in an independent Ichkeria.

The next big idea would be Islamism, something they would have been undoubtedly exposed to during the late 1990s and early 2000s. In the case of Chechnya, these two things merged together to the extent that Chechens these days that support independence are nearly always Islamists. There is no "secular-nationalist" movement.

Given that this attack was, I am sure, motivated by Islamism or anti-western sentiments or whatever (you'd have to ask Tamerlan but he's dead), you can now see how this all comes together.

I repeat - ethnic separatism in the middle east took on an Islamist colour following 9/11 (and the rise of Al-Qaeda and other extremists in the late 90s) in much the same way that ethnic separatists/nationalists were often Socialist or Marxist or Communist or whatever during the 20th century. Think of the PKK, Official IRA, Viet Cong and so on.

I'm going to add more Tamerlan Tsarnaev photos to make this colourful and perhaps give you things to muse over as you contemplate the minds of killers.

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[olemars]

Judging by all accounts, the older brother was the religious nut while the younger was in med school smoking lots of pot like everyone in med school.

I wonder if this might be the older brother guilting his younger brother into joining his plan, or worse, bringing him along without actually telling him what was going to happen. Last rumour from the Boston Globe is that the police faced off with Tamerlane after Dzjokhar ran him over with a car.

[RedKing]

I'd argue that the PKK became Islamists purely out of opportunism. Hell, they were Communists originally, again mostly out of opportunism. They dropped the Marxist rhetoric in the 90's when it didn't help any, and they only adopted the Islamist rhetoric after 9/11 when it was a way to get a little extra cash flow.

And yeah, I feel like the younger guy wasn't really into it, but he's in WAY over his head now.

[Zangi]

Hmm... 'lockdown' has been going on for roughly 15 hours now, if the NPR timeline is fairly accurate.

/tasteless
Anyone taking bets?




Brotherly respect and open camaraderie is my take on the younger coming along/actively partaking in it. 
Its the younger that is on the run now right?  It may well be that he gives himself in if he was mostly just brought along/didn't totally agree.  I foresee long years in jail/isolation with the possibility of execution at the end of it. There is no possible future now if he does get caught/turn himself in.  (Honestly, I'd rather go out on terms more of my own choosing.)

[Dutchling]

I thought the younger one was killed.

[Loud Whispers]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Hmm yeah this is martial law. This is not acceptable.

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Also their facial expressions are hilarious.

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Do you not feel safe yet citizen?

[werty892]

In circumstances like this it is acceptable for the government to do this. Its not good, but they can do it, and it may even be the right thing, considering the guy is wearing a bomb vest, is highly armed and is like a rat in a corner. He will kill as many as possible before he goes out.

Edit:Holy shit that face. Quick, to memebase!

[Loud Whispers]

In circumstances like this it is acceptable for the government to do this. Its not good, but they can do it, and it may even be the right thing, considering the guy is wearing a bomb vest, is highly armed and is like a rat in a corner. He will kill as many as possible before he goes out.

And can you not see how terrifying it is? I seriously thought those were soldiers until someone casually pointed out they were police.

Numerous European cities have been in this situation before and they never responded in such a reactionary paramilitary suspension of civil law.

Hearing people tell me this is acceptable confuses me thoroughly.

[werty892]

In circumstances like this it is acceptable for the government to do this. Its not good, but they can do it, and it may even be the right thing, considering the guy is wearing a bomb vest, is highly armed and is like a rat in a corner. He will kill as many as possible before he goes out.

And can you not see how terrifying it is? I seriously thought those were soldiers until someone casually pointed out they were police.

Numerous European cities have been in this situation before and they never responded in such a reactionary paramilitary suspension of civil law.

Hearing people tell me this is acceptable confuses me thoroughly.

I may be naive, or whatever, but if there was a guy heavily armed running around my my neighborhood, I would want every fucking police unit in the city on him.