>mainly making forts between the
>cliff wall and river
It's fine to do that.
>A four-stage fortress
In general this works quite nicely. In fact, I'd say cosmetics are really the only thing that keeps this from being the best way to go. It's just not that big of a deal to build - abandon - move on. But, it does maean that your first section of fortress between the cave face and the river ends up NOT being a nice-looking entry hall.
>I will open up an area after the river
>The lab will include a huge indoor forest.
I know these are popular, but personally I don't care for them. if you play on a thickly wooded map, there's just no reason for them. There are only a few things you have to make out of wood, and personally I find that it's not that difficult to stock up on wood from the outside. For example, in my current game that I'm playing, I started with a Proficient woodcutter, and right now at winter of the second year, I have a stockpile with over 200 pieces of wood in it. That's in addition to all the beds, barrels, bins, shields and cages I've already made. How? I basically just turned him on and forgot about him. And, right now I'm in the process of moving the wood pile to the main of my fortress, behind the river. Even if I never do anything to replenish it, I figure it will last a couple years at least, and there's nothing stopping me from leaving him on, and letting him make the walk from outside.
>"ring" topology
I prefer lattices, myself, but a ring will work. Just remember that you have more vertical space than horizontal space. Your life will be much easier if, whereever you build your fortress, you don't cross any boundaries. Between the cliff face and the river is fine. Between the river and the chasm is fine. Between the chasm and the lava is fine. But, from my experience, once your layout requires people to walk across any of those boundaries, that's when you start having problems. But there isn't much reason to, because there's so much vertical space to work with.
>I love to horde huge quantities of basic foods
This is good.
>now I am making cities that self-destruct or >are at the very least incredibly inefficient
What exactly IS the problem that you're having? How do your cities self destruct? Where is the inefficiency? You always have lots of food, so are you being destroyed by invaders? What's the problem you're having?
>What is a good aggrarean (farming)
>based build to start with?
>not found many
Really? I'm surprised. Ok...it depends on other factors, but personally I always start with at least one Proficient farmer. Sometimes two. It is unbelievably annoying to recruit Novice farmers later on and have them mysteriously "lose" two out of three seeds that they try to plant, while they're learning. You can afford train up skill once you've food aplenty, but in the beginning, I want my farms to produce. Fertilizing with potash the first few seasons can help a lot too. It's a hassle, but in the early years I find it can triple your food production. As to Herbalists, they can be nice once they're skilled, but unskilled they tend to 'fail' to produce anything from an awful lot of shrubs, and even if you start with a Proficient Herbalist, it seems like they bring back an awful lot of plants that are brewable, but inedible. In any case, if you plan to EVER have an herbalist, it's best to start with one. Otherwise don't bother. Also, I like to start with a LOT of food to begin with. I always try to start an expedition with at least 50 meat, and sometimes I've gone as high as 100. Sell one of the iron axes, you only need one axe for woodcutting. That extra food can give you a lot of extra leeway when it comes to surviving past your first winter. Just make sure that once that first winter is over, you've already tunneled out your farms, and made potash if you're going to use it. Potash takes FOREVER to make. As to Chefs and Brewers, I've read a few builds that start with these, but personally I generally don't. You absolutely want to have dedicated people performing these tasks eventually, but I rarely have much for them to do for the first year, and I'm content to let it wait. Still, they're both very reasonable choices, and if you want to start with an Herbalist, a Chef is an excellent accessory to cook up some of those otherwise inedible plants.
My advice would be:
Every game always bring:
2 Proficient miners
1 Proficient Mason
1 Proficient Carpenter
At least 1 Proficient Farmer (maybe two)
From there, it's largely about playstyle and the type of map, but try to avoid doubling up skills on the same dwarf, and anything you do train, be sure to train as high as you can. Any combination of the following would be reasonable for the rest of your team:
a Woodcutter (very useful, depending on map)
1 Herbalist and 1 Chef
1 Herbalist and 1 Brewer
An engraver
A soldier
Now, I'm sure there will be some disagreement about this. This is just what I've found works for me. I know a lot of people like to bring mechanics, for example, but in my first year I never need more than about eight mechanisms, and I find it's a good task for the metalsmith when he arrives. Or even my mason in his downtime. A dedicated mechanic always shows up eventually, and I'll generally draft one after about a year and a half of gameplay. They're just not that important until then. What about the engraver? Well, I find a legendary engraver can do the work at about the rate of roughly fifteen untrained ones, and it's really nice to have masterpiece engravings in my rooms. But, it's an incredibly slow skill to train. So I start right away.
>my problem is with task management and what to train on who.
How so? In the beginning? I try never to start anyone with more than one skill. It's a waste. Eventually you'll want a dedicated dwarf performing every task, and once a game is going I generally have too many dwarves, rather than too few, so I find it's best to start with dedicated professions as soon as possible. Played correctly, a single Legendary detailer can last you your entire game. I've never needed more than two carpenters. One is usually enough. Same with masons. High skill makes things go SO much faster, it's very helpful to get people trained in dedicated professions as soon as possible. This counts for soldiers as well. I always recruit EVERY peasant into my military the second they arrive. I don't expect to fight anything in the first few years, but having a dozen highly trained soldiers already available is extremely convenient. Even if you don't have any weapons to give them, at least give them shields and let them wrestle. Shields are great, easy to make, and even if they'll eventually be weapon fighters, the wrestling training will give them opportunity to increase their physical stats. A few years of that can make an incredible difference when it comes time to fight.
Good luck. Let us know how it turns out. 
Bucket Man
[ March 12, 2007: Message edited by: LordBucket ]
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Topic: Layout ideas! and questions? (Read 2019 times)