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[AnthroDMMatter]

I have confirmed that the creature tokens PHYS_ATT_RATES and MENT_ATT_RATES are not present for our dwarfy little guys so that when they're mining, engraving, etc they're not gaining anything in the attribute department (contrary to what you'll find in the wiki). I ran a quick test re-adding in these tokens for strength, endurance, and agility all with the values of 10:NONE:NONE:NONE and found that they did, in fact, gain in the appropriate attributes during skill use. I've found these tokens to be missing for both windows and linux versions (34.11, of course).

From what I can tell there was apparently an issue in an older build where civilian skill gain wasn't enough to counter-act attribute rust and so ALL attributes slowly went red.

Now, my question is, was the removal of these tokens intentional on the part of Toady or was the issue actually fixed and this is a 'bug?' I ask here because the old issue is listed as 'resolved' but I'm not certain how Toady fixed the issue.

[Telgin]

I believe those tags are only needed if a creature gains attributes at a different rate.  Based on my reading of the wiki, you just increased attribute gain rates by 50x.

[i2amroy]

I believe those tags are only needed if a creature gains attributes at a different rate.  Based on my reading of the wiki, you just increased attribute gain rates by 50x.

This right here. Just because an attribute token isn't present doesn't mean that it doesn't gain anything, it just means that it defaults to the basic setting.

[AnthroDMMatter]

I believe those tags are only needed if a creature gains attributes at a different rate.  Based on my reading of the wiki, you just increased attribute gain rates by 50x.

That was sort of the point. I wanted to insure that the mechanic was present and working, though, I guess setting it to 1 would've worked even better, but meh. I mean, if there is no skill gain at a 50x rate then there's no point in testing to see the effects of the decay rate.

This right here. Just because an attribute token isn't present doesn't mean that it doesn't gain anything, it just means that it defaults to the basic setting.

I started to figure that out on the second run through. Still though, I feel it is a bit odd not to witness any attribute gain when someone is running around mining day-in and day-out for a full 3 months. Especially when they're apparently 'average' for their species. I would think they would bulk up really quick.

I ran two recent tests. 1 at the 50x rate with normal decay rates set (according to the wiki) and a second game with the normal rates (though that's sort of pointless now that I've realized that all of my other games are good control groups). I did see them gaining attributes in the 50x game. AKA, no reason to assume rust rates prevent attribute gain.

Hmmmm, what I might run off and do is grab runesmith or some other program that allows me track actual values for their stats and compare and contrast the amount that jobs increase individual attributes a long with how many times a job must be performed before seeing an attribute boost. Might be nice to have that info in the wiki.

[i2amroy]

I started to figure that out on the second run through. Still though, I feel it is a bit odd not to witness any attribute gain when someone is running around mining day-in and day-out for a full 3 months. Especially when they're apparently 'average' for their species. I would think they would bulk up really quick.

One of the reasons for this is because "average" is such a broad category. The middle 1/3 - 1/2 of all dwarves fall into the average ranges, so dwarves usually will need to increase their strength by a large amount before you ever see any difference (unless they go from weak to average that is).

[Telgin]

In general I never see significant physical attribute changes except in soldiers.  Veteran soldiers usually have extremely good physical stats after a few years of sparring and fighting.  Pump operating on the side never hurts, but doesn't seem to contribute all that much either.

Mental attributes don't seem to vary much at all.  The exception to this is my broker and manager.  He or she usually develops very good mental stats over a few years.  Too bad they don't really mean all that much.

[AnthroDMMatter]

In general I never see significant physical attribute changes except in soldiers.  Veteran soldiers usually have extremely good physical stats after a few years of sparring and fighting.  Pump operating on the side never hurts, but doesn't seem to contribute all that much either.

Mental attributes don't seem to vary much at all.  The exception to this is my broker and manager.  He or she usually develops very good mental stats over a few years.  Too bad they don't really mean all that much.

Multiple items being trained simultaneously is the hypothesis posted on the df wiki as to why soldiers end up with better physical stats, and I can't help but agree. It might be worth it to set up a danger room and have two different dwarfs locked in. One with a full set of armor, weapons, and a shield, and the other with nothing (I don't think clothing contributes to armor skill gain, but I wouldn't want to risk it), that should test the hypothesis and prove whether or not it is true.

However, if you want to keep your little guys happy you'll have them doing some non-military type stuff early on in their careers of giant/dragon/kobold slaying. Which raises the question, "What's the best non-military task for training military attributes?" Probably something that trains soul attributes that are actually relevant to military types (see: http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/File:DFmental.PNG), but it might help to identify what trains these attributes fastest.

For instance, mining only gets a +1 bonus in all relevant skills once it hits the mark, and it only seems to do so every 20+5N jobs (where N is the number of attribute bonuses already racked up, should level off eventually). On the other hand, I've heard that pump operator gets a +1 in all relevant stats except in Endurance, which goes up by +6. Looking at it that way, pump operator is probably best for training endurance. Once I get a chance I'll be testing for which skills grant the biggest boost for military related soul attributes.

[Garath]

having an unarmored and above all unhelmeted dwarf in a danger room is a dangerous business

[Telgin]

Clothing grants armor user skill, I believe.  I've got enough civilians wandering around as dabblers in it after being attacked to give support to the theory that it does count.

I've also got no doubt that the attribute gains by soldiers are a result of training several skills simultaneously.  Probably more of a feature than a bug, but training attributes from other skills such as mining should probably be improved.