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Author Topic: Making Marksdwarves effective in melee (will it work?)  (Read 9338 times)

Mr S

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Re: Making Marksdwarves effective in melee (will it work?)
« Reply #30 on: April 17, 2013, 11:11:32 am »

That's Blunt FORCE, not forceD.  I'm pretty sure nobody volunteers for trauma in the first place.  :P

Grammar aside, yes, silver is awesome for blunt weapons in game.  It is very dense.  However, it will still not compare to an actual purpose built blunt weapon because of the definitions of the object in game.  See: Contact Area, et al.
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CognitiveDissonance

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Re: Making Marksdwarves effective in melee (will it work?)
« Reply #31 on: April 17, 2013, 12:54:25 pm »

That's Blunt FORCE, not forceD.  I'm pretty sure nobody volunteers for trauma in the first place.  :P

Grammar aside, yes, silver is awesome for blunt weapons in game.  It is very dense.  However, it will still not compare to an actual purpose built blunt weapon because of the definitions of the object in game.  See: Contact Area, et al.

That's correct. From my other thread on this topic, with the War Hammer added in
Code: [Select]
Type Size Attack Attack type Contact Area Penetration Velocity
Crossbow (Melee) 400 Bash Blunt 10000 -4000 1.25x
Training Sword 300 Slash Blunt 20000 -4000 1.25x
Short Sword 300 Slash Edge 20000 4000 1.25x
Battle Axe 800 Hack Edge 40000 6000 1.25x
War Hammer 400 Bash Blunt 10 -200 2.00x

While a crossbow CAN be made from better materials than a training sword, it's still a terrible, terrible weapon. It has 20 times less penetration, 1000 times larger contact area, and 62.5% less velocity than a war hammer.

Link to my related thread, which had some good discussion on this:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=124634.0
« Last Edit: April 17, 2013, 12:56:18 pm by CognitiveDissonance »
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Werdna

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Re: Making Marksdwarves effective in melee (will it work?)
« Reply #32 on: April 17, 2013, 03:16:34 pm »

Not a fan of assigning war animals to military - war animals have very short lifespans due to lack of armor, military dwarves get attached to animals assigned to them, and military are usually the least happy dwarves in the fort without adding regular pet loss on top of it.  I speak from experience, as I had a steel-clad ax-lord go on a berzerk tantrum rage after his dog died.  The resulting tantrum spiral was not pretty.  Admittedly, this was pre-animal handler changes, maybe the negative thoughts are no longer there; I haven't assigned animals to military since.

I am a fan of war animals however, but what I do instead is pen them in areas that are in between where the invaders come in and my melee post.  That way the invaders and animals engage first.  That should work perfect for a hybrid marksdwarves/melee military, allowing them time to fire into the dogpile before wading in.  Since the animals are not assigned, the dwarves get no happiness hits from their loss.

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Togre

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Re: Making Marksdwarves effective in melee (will it work?)
« Reply #33 on: April 17, 2013, 03:29:59 pm »

I thought I read about someone modding crossbows to have a bayonet.  I suppose that would basically be rationale for changing their combat values to a piercing or slashing weapon with the properties somewhere between a knife and a spear.
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Werdna

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Re: Making Marksdwarves effective in melee (will it work?)
« Reply #34 on: April 17, 2013, 03:31:04 pm »

I thought I read about someone modding crossbows to have a bayonet.  I suppose that would basically be rationale for changing their combat values to a piercing or slashing weapon with the properties somewhere between a knife and a spear.

Pretty sure the Masterwork mod has that; although it may also have been pulled in from an individual mod.
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Centigrade

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Re: Making Marksdwarves effective in melee (will it work?)
« Reply #35 on: April 17, 2013, 03:45:31 pm »

wouldnt makeing silver crossbows help for melee since silver is so good for blunt forced trama
There would be a large percentage increase in effective by using silver over, say, featherwood; but, even a silver (or platinum) crossbow is still a comparatively terrible melee weapon compared to any of the other melee weapons made from any other metal.
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DWC

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Re: Making Marksdwarves effective in melee (will it work?)
« Reply #36 on: April 17, 2013, 03:50:52 pm »

It's real easy to mod in a 'bayonet' to a crossbow just add

[ATTACK:EDGE:50:5000:stab:stabs:bayonet:1000]

at the end of the crossbow entry and it's done, or replace the bashing action with that. You can mess with the numbers, that entry is something like stabbing with a shortsword. Might put the crossbow [SIZE:] to 500 to 600 to account for the extra mass of the bayonet, which would also make it heavier and more lethal.

Might also replace the bashing entry on the crossbow with

[ATTACK:BLUNT:400:4000:bash:bashes:stock:1000] to model a good ol' smack with a buttstock, and it puts it in line with pommel strikes of swords and whatnot.

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Spish

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Re: Making Marksdwarves effective in melee (will it work?)
« Reply #37 on: April 17, 2013, 04:51:03 pm »

As a test, and because it made sense,  I equipped a dwarf in a succession fortress with both a crossbow (because early weapons are good) and with an iron dagger (because Masterwork lets you craft them). Here is the combat image linked by the current player:



So yes, melee weapons definitely help!
To be fair, he spent a very long time beating the elves with his crossbow (only occasionally pulling out his knife to stab them in the guts) before he did that.
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CognitiveDissonance

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Re: Making Marksdwarves effective in melee (will it work?)
« Reply #38 on: April 17, 2013, 04:52:50 pm »

As a test, and because it made sense,  I equipped a dwarf in a succession fortress with both a crossbow (because early weapons are good) and with an iron dagger (because Masterwork lets you craft them). Here is the combat image linked by the current player:



So yes, melee weapons definitely help!
To be fair, he spent a very long time beating the elves with his crossbow (only occasionally pulling out his knife to stab them in the guts) before he did that.

That sounds about right. At the same time though, it ended the combat very quickly. So I'm optimistic.
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Centigrade

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Re: Making Marksdwarves effective in melee (will it work?)
« Reply #39 on: April 18, 2013, 02:32:15 am »

Just posting to confirm that combining battle axes with crossbows works beautifully.

Right now my military consists of ten fully-steel armoured dwarfs and twenty war dogs, with each dwarf having a leather shield, copper crossbow, and steel battle axe equipped, in that order. I took the time to have each dwarf individually train two dogs, so that each dwarf has a breeding pair of mutts following him around doing whatever. Each of the times my dwarfs have engaged in combat that resulted in a melee, I was seeing very consistent battle axe use and hardly ever any crossbow bashes.
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Mr S

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Re: Making Marksdwarves effective in melee (will it work?)
« Reply #40 on: April 18, 2013, 09:35:13 am »

When you say assigned in this order, please clarify.

Is this the order in which they are made to appear in the uniform assignment?  Or is a uniform assigned, wait for units to grab the given item, uniform changed to include next successive item, wait for units to grab the NEXT item, lather, rinse, repeat?
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Centigrade

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Re: Making Marksdwarves effective in melee (will it work?)
« Reply #41 on: April 18, 2013, 02:26:31 pm »

When you say assigned in this order, please clarify.

Is this the order in which they are made to appear in the uniform assignment?  Or is a uniform assigned, wait for units to grab the given item, uniform changed to include next successive item, wait for units to grab the NEXT item, lather, rinse, repeat?

Ideally the former and the latter would have the same results, but this being dwarf fortress I suppose it's best not to make that assumption. I just did up a uniform, which I titled "Basic Kit," and on this uniform I assigned the following items:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
I might have the equipment order wrong for some of the other items (for proper layering concerns), since this is from memory rather than from referencing the game; but, the point is that the shields are listed first, then the crossbows, then the axes. Once you have created your uniform, make sure to set it to (r)eplace civilian clothes, and then select the squad to which you want to assign this uniform. Hit (e)quip once that squad is selected, then hit Assign (U)niforms; then, select any dwarf in the squad; then, select the particular uniform, in my example, "Default Kit," and then hit Shift+Enter to assign that uniform to the entire squad. As you point out, there are concerns that the equipment might not get put on in the right order for any number of reasons: Urist McAxelord might put on part of his uniform, then suddenly decide to take a nap, or whatever. My response here isn't about how to make sure that the dwarfs wear the equipment in the right order: it is to tell you the right order that the equipment needs to be worn in order for you to get the results you want.

The short and simple version here is that, on your dwarf's inventory screen, the shields should appear above the crossbows, and the crossbow should appear above the battle axes. Once you have your dwarfs equipped such, they will alternate between using their battle axes, shield bashes, kicks, bites, and crossbow bashes in melee, with significant preference given to the battle axes. A quick way to see if you've equipped your dwarfs correctly, without going through the headache of checking the order of every individual item, is to have one of them go into a danger room and just wait a bit to see whether he becomes an Axedwarf/Axe Lord or a Hammerdwarf/Hammerlord. Equipped the right way, dwarfs will gain skill in both Axe and Hammer, but will gain skill in Axe faster than Hammer.

If you really want to be super sure that you did things right, click the spoiler for a step by step guide.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
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VerdantSF

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Re: Making Marksdwarves effective in melee (will it work?)
« Reply #42 on: May 15, 2013, 01:56:54 pm »

I've been testing this a bit.  It looks like edged weapons overall are NOT preferred to crossbow bashes, but rather specific weapons are.  For ranged/melee hybrid troops, battle axes are preferred in melee by a good margin, while short swords are not, judging from sparring xp gains.  This would explain the mixed results people were getting, with axe users doing fine, but others not so much.  Once I get some actual combat text, I'll post the results.  For once, when I go LOOKING for an ambush, there are none to be found ;).

Raphite1

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Re: Making Marksdwarves effective in melee (will it work?)
« Reply #43 on: May 15, 2013, 02:46:13 pm »

That's Blunt FORCE, not forceD.  I'm pretty sure nobody volunteers for trauma in the first place.  :P

Grammar aside, yes, silver is awesome for blunt weapons in game.  It is very dense.  However, it will still not compare to an actual purpose built blunt weapon because of the definitions of the object in game.  See: Contact Area, et al.

That's correct. From my other thread on this topic, with the War Hammer added in
Code: [Select]
Type Size Attack Attack type Contact Area Penetration Velocity
Crossbow (Melee) 400 Bash Blunt 10000 -4000 1.25x
Training Sword 300 Slash Blunt 20000 -4000 1.25x
Short Sword 300 Slash Edge 20000 4000 1.25x
Battle Axe 800 Hack Edge 40000 6000 1.25x
War Hammer 400 Bash Blunt 10 -200 2.00x

While a crossbow CAN be made from better materials than a training sword, it's still a terrible, terrible weapon. It has 20 times less penetration, 1000 times larger contact area, and 62.5% less velocity than a war hammer.

Link to my related thread, which had some good discussion on this:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=124634.0

Toady's notes in the raws say that Penetration is irrelevant for for blunt weapons.

I honestly have no idea how the other variables (contact area, velocity multiplier, and item size) influence how much, and what kind, of damage is done by blunt weapons. Of course a higher velocity is better (but by how much per unit velocity?), and presumably a larger size (for heavier weight) is better in terms of damage per blow. But is a low contact area or a high contact area better? Is low/high better for penetrating armor? Presumably low contact area is better for causing injuries. Does high contact area have a better chance of actually landing? Gah so many questions.

VerdantSF

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Re: Making Marksdwarves effective in melee (will it work?)
« Reply #44 on: May 15, 2013, 04:39:00 pm »

Hmmm... while sparring favored battle axe slashing over crossbow bashing, in actual combat, the reverse was true :(.



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