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[Wastedlabor]

Mmh, in case this needs to be said, make a tank xbowdwarf uniform and max their armor layers.

[Ebonkitsune]

i thought due to their weight, copper crossbows were acceptable melee weapons.  I would try training legendary hammerdwarfs first then switch them over to crossbows once they have high hammerdwarf skill, but MOST IMPORTANTLY high shield user and dodger skills.

Actually, throwing marksdwarves in danger room trains them in hammerdwarf

[Jenniretta]

Usually, I just wrap my marksdwarves in the same armour my melee units get and try to get them the heaviest crossbows I can manage, so when they do end up in melee they are pretty well-defended, and their crossbow is as effective as it can be at bludgeoning.

I've tried giving them backup weapons, but they don't use them very often it seems. Even if you assign the weapons in the correct order, they just seem to prefer bludgeoning with their crossbow anyway most of the time.

To improve their survivability, though, I try not to send them out alone, I'll usually station them on a tower, or a distance back, and have melee dwarves go in ahead of them. The result being that they don't join the melee until they are out of bolts (rather than getting charged prematurely) and often by then enough limbs have been severed and bones broken by the actual melee dwarves that the marksdwarves don't get hurt too badly.

[CognitiveDissonance]

As a test, and because it made sense,  I equipped a dwarf in a succession fortress with both a crossbow (because early weapons are good) and with an iron dagger (because Masterwork lets you craft them). Here is the combat image linked by the current player:



So yes, melee weapons definitely help!

[GiglameshDespair]

Its a bit micromanage-y, but what if you gave them crossbows and melee weapons, and you forbid the crossbows they were carrying just before they went toe-to-toe? Shouldn't they then drop their crossbows and draw swords? Course, they would have to go pick up the crossbows again after, but it's not a worry if they're all dead anyway.

[CognitiveDissonance]

Its a bit micromanage-y, but what if you gave them crossbows and melee weapons, and you forbid the crossbows they were carrying just before they went toe-to-toe? Shouldn't they then drop their crossbows and draw swords? Course, they would have to go pick up the crossbows again after, but it's not a worry if they're all dead anyway.

That could work, but given currently bugged equipment, it just might not. I can easily see the dwarf taking off to grab a crossbow from a stockpile, or picking up 5 later, or never grabbing another crossbow.

[GiglameshDespair]

Its a bit micromanage-y, but what if you gave them crossbows and melee weapons, and you forbid the crossbows they were carrying just before they went toe-to-toe? Shouldn't they then drop their crossbows and draw swords? Course, they would have to go pick up the crossbows again after, but it's not a worry if they're all dead anyway.

That could work, but given currently bugged equipment, it just might not. I can easily see the dwarf taking off to grab a crossbow from a stockpile, or picking up 5 later, or never grabbing another crossbow.

If in sight of an enemy a military dwarf will always attempt to attack, is my understanding. They may start messing around after a battle with their equipment but that's after, so is a secondary concern. The possible risk is that they'll drop their crossbow and continue wielding their sword after they've picked up another.

[sambojin]

The answer is wardogs. Or it was a few versions ago.

It depends on just how many dwarfs are in your marksdwarf squad, but getting the leader to train up 7-15 wardogs and equipping the dwarfs with copper crossbows and copper (or wooden) shields makes for an acceptable melee squad. The extra meatshields/attacks helps them bring down things and then they just slowly thump the enemy to death with their crossbows and shields. It only takes a bit of bleeding or pain-injuries to turn the tide in melee, and doggies will usually do a bit of that to anything vulnerable to crap hammers. About 1-2 dogs per marksdwarf, with a breeding stock to replace losses. There will be losses. But that just gives you more food and leather and totems and bone bolts, so it's still a win-win situation.

Do doggies still just follow their trainer? (ie: not counted as a pet, no-one cares if they die as long as you only trained them and didn't assign them)

It helps with pretty much any squad really. Wardoggies are great, in both life and death.

[Centigrade]

The answer is wardogs. Or it was a few versions ago.

It depends on just how many dwarfs are in your marksdwarf squad, but getting the leader to train up 7-15 wardogs and equipping the dwarfs with copper crossbows and copper (or wooden) shields makes for an acceptable melee squad. The extra meatshields/attacks helps them bring down things and then they just slowly thump the enemy to death with their crossbows and shields. It only takes a bit of bleeding or pain-injuries to turn the tide in melee, and doggies will usually do a bit of that to anything vulnerable to crap hammers. About 1-2 dogs per marksdwarf, with a breeding stock to replace losses. There will be losses. But that just gives you more food and leather and totems and bone bolts, so it's still a win-win situation.

Do doggies still just follow their trainer? (ie: not counted as a pet, no-one cares if they die as long as you only trained them and didn't assign them)

It helps with pretty much any squad really. Wardoggies are great, in both life and death.

War animals still follow their trainer around after being trained, yes; so a great thing to do for a marksdwarf squad (and which makes an all-Marksdwarf military entirely feasible) is to assign each Marksdwarf one (or more) hunting dog and war dog (or other animal), rather than waste dwarfs on melee. You can even settle on this at embark by bringing a cheap breeding stock: 1 male and 4 female dogs is a total of 80 embark points, and within a few seasons will have you crawling with war animals. If you do what most folks do and spam cage traps, or get lucky with an elf caravan, you might even get grizzly bears, which are superior to dogs both for hunting and war animals.

[sambojin]

Yeah, but he said he was a bit new to this (didn't know if it was the forums or the game or both).

I used to find that a mix of 2 male dogs and 5 females on embark would bring most of the females in pregnant (ie: puppies within the season), and they were quick to train. One kennel, one training area (I don't know if you NEED a kennel, but it can't hurt) and you'll end up with the entire pack trained quickly.

On wardogs/hunting dogs, always train two of them (any mix, hunters are a bit broken, so probably war doggies) with every single fisherdwarf, hunter and lumber-jack. The surface is where dwarves piss off other species and animals. So, bring some wardogs and do that thing that dwarfs do. Over-fish, over-hunt and clear-fell forests.

Being above ground is dwarvenly, as long as you do it right. Give your fisherdwarves picks, shields, helmets and wardogs. Because you can.

[Geldrin]

What about mining picks? They aren't considered normal weapons. Did anybody made science on this?

[CognitiveDissonance]

The answer is wardogs. Or it was a few versions ago.

It depends on just how many dwarfs are in your marksdwarf squad, but getting the leader to train up 7-15 wardogs and equipping the dwarfs with copper crossbows and copper (or wooden) shields makes for an acceptable melee squad. The extra meatshields/attacks helps them bring down things and then they just slowly thump the enemy to death with their crossbows and shields. It only takes a bit of bleeding or pain-injuries to turn the tide in melee, and doggies will usually do a bit of that to anything vulnerable to crap hammers. About 1-2 dogs per marksdwarf, with a breeding stock to replace losses. There will be losses. But that just gives you more food and leather and totems and bone bolts, so it's still a win-win situation.

Do doggies still just follow their trainer? (ie: not counted as a pet, no-one cares if they die as long as you only trained them and didn't assign them)

It helps with pretty much any squad really. Wardoggies are great, in both life and death.

War animals are indeed amazing. I don't think they would completely replace melee dwarves, as there are other, spoiler, challenges that come out as you start digging. Nevertheless, the war animals provide one of the most important factors to winning melee - numbers. If your dwarves have ever been swarmed by undead mussel shells, you would know.

If you can get your hands on them, Jabberers are worth all the work it takes to tame them.
http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2012:Animal_trainer
http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2012:Animal_trainer#Trainable_war.2Fhunting_animals
http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2012:Jabberer

What about mining picks? They aren't considered normal weapons. Did anybody made science on this?

Mining picks are still regular weapons, they just don't have a dedicated skill like Axedwarf vs Woodcutting.

EDIT: That is to say, the weapon PICK uses the skill MINING in combat. This means that a dedicated Pick dwarf will train up their mining skill, and highly skilled miners will be skilled in the PICK. The caveat is that miners will not be skilled in any other combat skill, such as Fighter or Armor User.

[Mr S]

^^ Has a partial inaccuracy.  Picks do not have a COMBAT SPECIFIC skill associated with them.  Using them in battle trains the Mining skill, similarly to actual mining.  Likewise, the Mining skill is used to calculate combat effect.  The issue comes in with the bugs of uniforms and miners (as well as hunters).

It could be managed, with some degree of micromanagement, to train highly skilled miners, disable their Mining labor assignment, draft them into the military, set a custom uniform that included a pick, and send them out swinging picks at baddies.  I think.

It has also been attempted to use the miners as a backup militia, weilding picks and no specified armor.  The idea is that they'll just leave the mining operation in a pinch to go split goblin skulls.  However, what often happens, due to bugs in the military equipment system, is that they will drop the pick that they've been mining with and try to equip a different pick for use in combat before reporting to duty, if they ever make it there at all.

It may be possible to circumvent this by forbidding all but the highest quality picks as they are produced, to that your miners will have already changed to the best picks possible BEFORE they are needed.  I have yet to see Science on this though.

[CognitiveDissonance]

^^ Has a partial inaccuracy.  Picks do not have a COMBAT SPECIFIC skill associated with them.  Using them in battle trains the Mining skill, similarly to actual mining.  Likewise, the Mining skill is used to calculate combat effect.  The issue comes in with the bugs of uniforms and miners (as well as hunters).

It could be managed, with some degree of micromanagement, to train highly skilled miners, disable their Mining labor assignment, draft them into the military, set a custom uniform that included a pick, and send them out swinging picks at baddies.  I think.

It has also been attempted to use the miners as a backup militia, weilding picks and no specified armor.  The idea is that they'll just leave the mining operation in a pinch to go split goblin skulls.  However, what often happens, due to bugs in the military equipment system, is that they will drop the pick that they've been mining with and try to equip a different pick for use in combat before reporting to duty, if they ever make it there at all.

It may be possible to circumvent this by forbidding all but the highest quality picks as they are produced, to that your miners will have already changed to the best picks possible BEFORE they are needed.  I have yet to see Science on this though.

I will adjust my post for clarity.
As far as equipment goes, this should be the same as hunters and woodcutters. Hunters and Woodcutters have "hidden" uniforms, so when a military dwarf has one of those enabled, it results in all sorts of equipment confusion. So to get a hunter to be a marksdwarf, you should disable hunting. Same should apply to mining.

Also, don't dwarves automatically seek out better equipment as time goes by? May have been removed with the related noble position...
Either way, to avoid having to forbid all other picks, you can also do this:

To select a specific piece of equipment (such as an artifact), select 'specific _____' under that equipment type (eg. 'specific armor' in the Armor field); for your convenience, highest-quality equipment is listed first.

Source: http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2012:Squads#Equipping_Soldiers

[drivec]

wouldnt makeing silver crossbows help for melee since silver is so good for blunt forced trama