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Author Topic: Time To Segregate Suggestion games?  (Read 9910 times)

Gervassen

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Re: Time To Segregate Suggestion games?
« Reply #135 on: April 07, 2013, 09:41:47 pm »

So, how many RPs have you read, then?

A few that I catch early enough. They can be fun if you're participating, or are close on the waiting list, after all. But they tend to be burdened by roleplayers not really having a focus, and after a few pages, my head hurts from the varying writing abilities of those involved. It's easier to find one inspired GM than six inspired players and an inspired GM together. That's a simple statistical truth, isn't it? Rolling a six once is much more common than rolling seven sixes in a row. Simple and undeniable probabilities in action.

As a result, I haven't found a long-established RP thread that was consistent enough to read as a story, rather than participating as a game. Meanwhile, I caught on to Lordship when it had 90 pages already, read them all happily without noticing any changes in quality or style in the main story, although the suggestors have come and gone.

To counter-argue, a suggestion game has the capability to be more railroaded than something such as a freeform RP can. With a suggestion game, the author can simply pick suggestions that fit with what he wants to do or simply wait until someone makes that suggestion. With a roleplaying game, the GM HAS to acknowledge the choices of the players otherwise all of the players will complain. So essentially, with a suggestion game you're getting a railroaded story that was going to end with what the author had in mind no matter what the readers wanted.

See? It's easy to argue this kind of stuff.

And to rebutt, you are speaking like a participant, which I have already said is good fun. I am talking about whether RP threads exist enough as a coherent storyline to have merit to outside readers. You use words like railroaded, which has no meaning to the outside reader. Everyone other than the involved participants is "railroaded" by the very nature of their passive reading. "Freeform" to participants is still "railroaded" to all uninvolved readers. So are we now talking about the handful of participants, or the general readership, as I thought we were doing?

And to expand on what freeform implies, it isn't always better quality than a story dictated from one voice. Often those freeform things don't actually go well together and make a good story. When you read a great book of English literature, you are getting "railroaded" and I wouldn't have it any other way, and you are getting it all in one consistent voice with a clear theme and style. I don't want to read a page of Shakespeare, flip and find a page of Hemmingway, then a page of Stephen King, then of Stephanie Meyer, etc.

Plus, players can backstab the living hell out of each other.

Anyway, it's not a case of "inferior substitute, superior exemplar", RPs and suggestion games are two different genres who do some things really, really well, and other things not so good.

RP threads are good fun. To participants. To outside readers, they are just extremely disjointed books without any interactivity. Backstabbing is actually a good example of why the RP thread is a horrible read to outsiders. Just a bunch of newbs team-killing at the spawn point!

You can say that this isn't about inferior and superior forms of forum game, and I'll agree with that. because RP threads are really fun and have a lot of merit as games, just not as stories. But what we're saying is, which type depends on having a large readership, and which is actually more readable to outsiders? That's what was asked. The unified structure of the suggestion game makes it more suited to both those questions.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2013, 09:50:38 pm by Gervassen »
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freeformschooler

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Re: Time To Segregate Suggestion games?
« Reply #136 on: April 07, 2013, 09:45:35 pm »

RPs aren't really about a big coherent story, though. They're more about the story you're telling from a player to a player, a player to the GM, or the GM to a player. They're about making your own story. I mean, you CAN have good story in an RP, you just have to go about it more subtly. For example: have a big, coherent plot behind the world that is of minor relevance to what the players are doing. They discover the world's story as they go on, but they're not the ones creating it. They're too busy creating stories with each other.

This is easy to screw up, and it applies to suggestion games too, but it's easier to implement there.
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Fniff

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Re: Time To Segregate Suggestion games?
« Reply #137 on: April 07, 2013, 09:47:46 pm »

Ahem. Here's what railroading is. Railroading is a very bad thing.

Suggestion games are nothing like reading a book. The players are playing a, you know, a game. So that means they have some actual choice. Railroading eliminates choice. It pisses off suggestion gamers just as much as RPers.  Here's my own personal example. I was looking through the suggestion game Prequel, which has a clever plot and good art. However, the main focus of the plot was on how terrible the protagonist's life was. Again and again, the hero's life was crushed. And at one point, it seemed like she was going to pick up the pieces and actually get things right this time!

Oh wait. Then she gets conned and gets robbed of all her money. To the protestations of thousands of players.

At that point, I decided to stop reading, because I didn't want to read a fucking endless infinite loop of suffering. The players could not effect anything because the plot was in the way. That's railroading. Total loss of control, just go with what the GM says whether you like it or not.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2013, 09:50:49 pm by Fniff »
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Gervassen

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Re: Time To Segregate Suggestion games?
« Reply #138 on: April 07, 2013, 09:58:42 pm »

RPs aren't really about a big coherent story, though. They're more about the story you're telling from a player to a player, a player to the GM, or the GM to a player. They're about making your own story.

But if you aren't participating in the RP, then it isn't about making your own story. and It's not telling the other players as a player, or the GM, when you're none of those. That's why RP threads should have their own little forum whether the handful of participants can easily gather and find their slow-moving threads that don't really interest uninvolved readers as passive storylines.

This whole argument is "Which type of forum game needs a bigger readership base and more exposure?" Everything that keeps getting repeated about RP threads is only true for the six players involved. To everyone else, it's just a passively-read story. Meanwhile, everyone can choose to participate or not participate in a suggestion game, and it's more consistent to read.
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Fniff

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Re: Time To Segregate Suggestion games?
« Reply #139 on: April 07, 2013, 10:02:14 pm »

Ahem. Haven't we already decided that the argument is kinda pointless because it's not a problem yet? We haven't got any constant 504s from the endless amount of suggestion games pouring out. Thus it isn't going to crash the forum. Thus we don't need to segregate anything. Segregating RPs is especially ridiculous because they aren't in any danger of causing a forum overflow while at some points it seemed like suggestion games were.

GreatWyrmGold

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Re: Time To Segregate Suggestion games?
« Reply #140 on: April 07, 2013, 10:02:42 pm »

Let me stop this. You are arguing apples, he oranges.

He is talking about a nonparticipant reading. You are talking about participants.
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Fniff

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Re: Time To Segregate Suggestion games?
« Reply #141 on: April 07, 2013, 10:04:07 pm »

That's what I'm trying to say, it's not a case of "this is inferior", it's a case of two different genres and thus they shouldn't be judged as superior or inferior to the other.

freeformschooler

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Re: Time To Segregate Suggestion games?
« Reply #142 on: April 07, 2013, 10:04:44 pm »

RPs aren't really about a big coherent story, though. They're more about the story you're telling from a player to a player, a player to the GM, or the GM to a player. They're about making your own story.

But if you aren't participating in the RP, then it isn't about making your own story. and It's not telling the other players as a player, or the GM, when you're none of those. That's why RP threads should have their own little forum whether the handful of participants can easily gather and find their slow-moving threads that don't really interest uninvolved readers as passive storylines.

This whole argument is "Which type of forum game needs a bigger readership base and more exposure?" Everything that keeps getting repeated about RP threads is only true for the six players involved. To everyone else, it's just a passively-read story. Meanwhile, everyone can choose to participate or not participate in a suggestion game, and it's more consistent to read.

Yes, but see, the whole point of having an RP on the forum here is it's not exclusive. People can sign up any time to most RPs. Many of them aren't slow-moving. Some are free-form and have enormous amounts of participants.

Just because you don't like reading something as a non-participant doesn't mean you can't become one and start reading. The story may become interesting to you once you become a part of it.
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Fniff

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Re: Time To Segregate Suggestion games?
« Reply #143 on: April 07, 2013, 10:05:19 pm »

Depending on the RP, though waitlists exist.

freeformschooler

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Re: Time To Segregate Suggestion games?
« Reply #144 on: April 07, 2013, 10:05:57 pm »

And the waitlisters generally read it, too.
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Xantalos

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Re: Time To Segregate Suggestion games?
« Reply #145 on: April 07, 2013, 10:45:19 pm »

Wow. Uh ... all I can say to this is that I don't think suggestion games should be segregated -yet-. They make up about 50% of the games on this board, after all, and for now the new one's arent that big of a problem.
This kinda reminds me of the general resentment toward minimalist RTDs on the RTD board.
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Servant Corps

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Re: Time To Segregate Suggestion games?
« Reply #146 on: April 09, 2013, 06:15:12 pm »

I might as well ask this question since this topic seems to be best suited for it.

In a suggestion game, you only make suggestions to the GM, right? And then the GM gets to pick what suggestion he wants, and then design a story out of that. The end result is supposedly a better story.

Fine. How exactly is a "suggestion game" a game though? There's no real competition at all, just the GM and the players cooperating to write a story, with the GM just picking whatever suggestion suits his fancy.

Disclaimer: I have only participated in one suggestion game: "Do Not Trust the Rainbow Snail".
« Last Edit: April 09, 2013, 06:17:25 pm by Servant Corps »
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GreatWyrmGold

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Re: Time To Segregate Suggestion games?
« Reply #147 on: April 09, 2013, 06:17:18 pm »

Wrong. A GM is supposed to pick by the popular consensus unless some rules dictated at the beginning state otherwise. If the GM doesn't, s/he can expect players to point this out and eventually abandon the game.
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Servant Corps

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Re: Time To Segregate Suggestion games?
« Reply #148 on: April 09, 2013, 06:19:19 pm »

Okay then. The GM is the one that can decide what is the popular consensus though, correct?
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Fniff

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Re: Time To Segregate Suggestion games?
« Reply #149 on: April 09, 2013, 06:27:09 pm »

Yes... But I'd disagree that it's not a game. Check out "narrative by trope" on this forum. That's not a game cos it's just several people collaborating... yet, it kinda is, isn't it? It certainly wouldn't fly in general discussion. Thus, suggestion games belong in forum games and roleplaying.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2013, 06:29:20 pm by Fniff »
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