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Author Topic: Making a cavern-fort  (Read 4191 times)

Necrisha

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Re: Making a cavern-fort
« Reply #15 on: April 05, 2013, 01:56:10 pm »

Unless you airlock children apart from each other that could be a problem. I'm at the point where I want to try an semi-isolated civ so I'm thinking island + one one tile walkway to limit what the dorf caravan brings through the cavern. Set migrants to zero once there is a suitable seed population. Or just up the number of starting dorfs to 15 and build from that and hard-coded migrants.

I don't like the idea of that much in-breeding...
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EDIT: Keas restricted to tropical forests where they belong.  Those evil, EVIL, foul little things.
 
Edit: The baby murderer became a friend of the fortress, which started a loyalty cascade, and now most of the squad is dead.

Loud Whispers

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Re: Making a cavern-fort
« Reply #16 on: April 05, 2013, 03:00:42 pm »

In regards to stopping creatures from appearing on your map, walling off the caverns on the lowest level does not induce magical flying creature spam. It's just that walls create a floor on the level above them.
If that floor tile is connected to the edge and remains an open floor, it will be an eligible tile for creatures to appear on. Since it'll now most likely be suspended with no way to the lower levels, only fliers will be able to get down and wander the caverns.
It is entirely possible to wall off the entire caverns though with simple use of stairs and other such constructions to completely remove all entrances to the caverns, at which point nothing will wander through (or at least not through that entrance).

ArmokGoB

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Re: Making a cavern-fort
« Reply #17 on: April 05, 2013, 04:47:58 pm »

Build some device that catapults the caravans into the cavern. Preferably onto land.
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Zanzetkuken The Great

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Re: Making a cavern-fort
« Reply #18 on: April 05, 2013, 04:51:43 pm »

Build some device that catapults the caravans into the cavern. Preferably onto land.

Elves to the water until you get magma?
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Sutremaine

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Re: Making a cavern-fort
« Reply #19 on: April 05, 2013, 08:12:06 pm »

In regards to stopping creatures from appearing on your map, walling off the caverns on the lowest level does not induce magical flying creature spam. It's just that walls create a floor on the level above them.
If that floor tile is connected to the edge and remains an open floor, it will be an eligible tile for creatures to appear on.
Constructed fortifications don't.

If you have water at the edges of the cavern I would recommend leaving a few tiles of land access, with these tiles being sealed from the rest of the cavern by further fortifications (make it a double layer to be absolutely certain of sealing all the diagonals). Alternatively, if you can build from floor to ceiling with a single layer of wall, build the wall a tile back from the edge.

This is because if there's no land access to the caverns, anything that can swim underwater will spawn in the water. This includes FBs. If you want your sourced cavern water without allowing any creatures at all through, you'll need a pump with a grate over the intake tile, and the grate surrounded with walls so that there's no access to the grate level.
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I am trying to make chickens lay bees as eggs. So far it only produces a single "Tame Small Creature" when a hen lays bees.
Honestly at the time, I didn't see what could go wrong with crowding 80 military Dwarves into a small room with a necromancer for the purpose of making bacon.

bluephoenix

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Re: Making a cavern-fort
« Reply #20 on: April 06, 2013, 08:20:12 am »

If you are going through the trouble of walling them off so they can't form social relationships, you can instead put
Code: [Select]
NOEMOTION inside the creature_standart raw file like I did and play that way until toady tones down tantrums/negative emotions like he talked about in the last DF talk.
It has no effect other than the dwarves not getting angry.

It is a lot more pleasant playing like this.
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snakesoul

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Re: Making a cavern-fort
« Reply #21 on: April 06, 2013, 08:35:02 am »

If you are going through the trouble of walling them off so they can't form social relationships, you can instead put
Code: [Select]
NOEMOTION inside the creature_standart raw file like I did and play that way until toady tones down tantrums/negative emotions like he talked about in the last DF talk.
It has no effect other than the dwarves not getting angry.

It is a lot more pleasant playing like this.
Can I add this in a started fort and it will make effect?
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Dwarven War Boar

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Re: Making a cavern-fort
« Reply #22 on: April 06, 2013, 08:36:15 am »

It might be more interesting to attempt to induce the "doesn't care about anything anymore" thought in all of your dwarves through the tried and tested method of dropping cats regularly from a great height into your general living area. And with this method you don't need to feel like you've cheated by sucking the soul out of all dwarves in the raws.
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bluephoenix

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Re: Making a cavern-fort
« Reply #23 on: April 06, 2013, 08:44:48 am »

If you are going through the trouble of walling them off so they can't form social relationships, you can instead put
Code: [Select]
NOEMOTION inside the creature_standart raw file like I did and play that way until toady tones down tantrums/negative emotions like he talked about in the last DF talk.
It has no effect other than the dwarves not getting angry.

It is a lot more pleasant playing like this.
Can I add this in a started fort and it will make effect?
Yes if you put it inside the save folders raw it will work.

It might be more interesting to attempt to induce the "doesn't care about anything anymore" thought in all of your dwarves through the tried and tested method of dropping cats regularly from a great height into your general living area. And with this method you don't need to feel like you've cheated by sucking the soul out of all dwarves in the raws.

I'd rather edit the raws than pretend to be some heartless goblin. My dwarves are noble creatures that give respect where it is due and don't slaughter poor defenceless animals unless it is needed for food.  :P

And IRC the "doesn't care about anything anymore" thought has been removed or at least been REALLY toned down since the last few versions.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2013, 08:46:46 am by bluephoenix »
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Dwarven War Boar

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Re: Making a cavern-fort
« Reply #24 on: April 06, 2013, 09:16:04 am »

I can confirm that it certainly hasn't been removed, I'm not sure about toning it down. What do you mean pretend to be some heartless goblin? By utilising the feline menace for your own purposes?
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bluephoenix

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Re: Making a cavern-fort
« Reply #25 on: April 06, 2013, 09:34:46 am »

I can confirm that it certainly hasn't been removed, I'm not sure about toning it down. What do you mean pretend to be some heartless goblin? By utilising the feline menace for your own purposes?
Well in the old 40d version every single military dwarf had this trait after getting a couple kills and now it seems to take much longer to appear.
Yes, think of these great vermin hunters as you wish but simply dropping animals from deadly heights into your meeting hall for all to see is barbaric at best.
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Dwarven War Boar

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Re: Making a cavern-fort
« Reply #26 on: April 06, 2013, 10:00:46 am »

I can confirm that it certainly hasn't been removed, I'm not sure about toning it down. What do you mean pretend to be some heartless goblin? By utilising the feline menace for your own purposes?
Well in the old 40d version every single military dwarf had this trait after getting a couple kills and now it seems to take much longer to appear.
Yes, think of these great vermin hunters as you wish but simply dropping animals from deadly heights into your meeting hall for all to see is barbaric at best.
I can confirm that it is definitely still in the game, though yes it takes a while to appear, and seems to go through a couple of stages before reaching that point.
And great vermin hunters? Glazed rock pots more or less eliminate the need for cats eventually, and then you have peregrine falcons which aren't as annoying due to controlled birth and lack of adoption. And if not, only one breeding pair is necessary. I usually designate the rest for slaughter anyway, but this way they're serving the good of the fort as they sacrifice themselves for the favour of the deity of FPS, and for purposes of creating a strong and toughened people. These are cavern dwarves after all, not like those fat softies who live barely inside mountains, or worse, on hills. If they can't handle the satisfying plop of a cat landing on their dining tables then they aren't fit for cavern life.

...

If you really love cats for some reason (???), you could just substitute any other creature you can get your hands on.
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Flarp

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Re: Making a cavern-fort
« Reply #27 on: April 27, 2013, 02:33:36 am »

I managed to achieve a mostly-sealed-off, self-sufficient fort with the incidental aid of two things: chickens and goblins with very good timing.

Cavern Entrance to Shademines
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Shademines (Ashmonavuz, in the dwarven tongue) was founded to be a covert fortress buried deep beneath the southern glaciers. Queen Zulban of Zas Thestkig ordered its creation in order to spy on the ever-wily elves of Ana Amira, who have been expanding into the frozen south at an alarming pace.

The main "entrance" to Shademines is bored into the side of the first cavern's wall, on the shores of a massive underground lake that extends off-map. Smuntsu, the monstrous spider that threw many a dwarf to their death with its unnatural elephant's trunk, came from the ocean.

The formerly moss-covered lakeshore has been the center of the fortress' (varyingly-successful) attempts at agriculture. At first, an effort was made to domesticate and breed native cavern wildlife - however, the only breeding pair successfully captured and tamed were a pair of Dralthas, who produced three young before it became clear the beach provided insufficient grazing space. After some regrettable starvation incidents, the remaining three were slaughtered for a very large amount of meat, which, alongside a well built into the lakeside, kept the fortress alive for its first year.

The original party (which has been augmented by a few migrant waves that got in before the Sealing) brought a breeding pair of chickens with them. On a whim, a nest box was ordered and the resulting clutch of eggs was allowed to hatch. These chicks were then allowed to grow up and lay eggs of their own to create a sizable meat supply that could be slaughtered relatively quickly, and did not require grazing space.

Because of various distracting events (see below), however, several more generations of chickens were hatched than intended. Newly-grown roosters were starting to seriously harm one another in the close quarters they were kept, so all adult chickens were designated as available for adoption. Several dwarves had a preference for chickens, interestingly, and many in fact adopted three or four each. Even with occasional chicken casualties to cavern wildlife, these pets seem to cause a multiplicative level of pet-comfort happy thoughts - an axedwarf who had recently been wounded in a battle that saw his wife and child slain felt quite content after being surrounded by the love of his quartet of hens.

Shademines Trading Post
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As spring arrived, an elven caravan was foolish enough to route through our territory - a quick seizure of their goods was planned, but never executed, as they arrived at the same time as a duo of goblin master thieves noticed by a chicken loitering around the entrance to the downward shaft. Several elven merchants got shanked and their livestock ran away just as the two greenskins got caught in cage traps.

For three years straight, following that incident, goblin ambushes have arrived at the same time as elven "traders". Even if they are murdering each other, it's never too early to suspect elven trickery.

Surface Entrance to Shademines (at Glacier Surface and Bedrock)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Until more cage and spike traps (an early product of Shademines' rich tetrahedrite deposits was an artifact silver trap spike) were installed in the path through the glacier to the actual mineshaft downward, there were often a considerable number of hostile goblin raiders loitering around the surface - until they were inevitably killed off by disappointed human merchants a few months later. This lead to the decision to lock the fortress down indefinitely, except to retrieve the remains of the maimed elven traders and caged goblin raiders, and to discuss the progress of the fort's intelligence gathering with the Mountainhome Liaison.

The First Breach
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This is where the mineshaft first reached the lush, fungus-strewn cavern floor. Since it bored lengthwise through a tall pillar of stone, all three exits at the base were sealed with heavy stone doors. The one door occasionally allowed to open was surrounded by stone fortifications and cage traps - never has a surface invader actually penetrated this far, and the cage traps are mainly used on troglodytes that kept trying to climb the mineshaft (until they eventually realized that it lead nowhere but a corpse-strewn glacier).

As it turned out, this segment of the cavern was one of a few narrow passages between the shores of the underground lake (which, surrounded by water on most sides, was largely tamed once it was initially cleared out) and a vast valley in the south. Because of this, a Giant Toad caught early on was given basic training and tied to the fortifications to act as a guard. It proved incredibly resilient, but was eventually killed by a surprisingly-organized group of five troggs acting in tandem. Since then, it's been replaced by a tamed Giant Olm, which looks promising but has not yet actually killed anything.

Passage to the Undervalley
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The Undervalley was briefly penetrated by a few brave hunters (once they finally figured out how to stop looking for game on the barren surface and start taking down the meaty dralthas and cave dogs underground) who discovered a pair of Giant Cave Spiders and Sedme, a humanoid being of pure filth that (alongside the spiders) ensnared many rangers with its poisonous webs. Thankfully, all three went down with enough judicious application of crossbow-armed recruits; relatedly, happiness is up as several more high-quality bedrooms have become free.

Eventually, once a military has been properly assembled from the vast quantities of equipment salvaged from the goblins and elves (the cavern's impressive mineral reserves are mostly native silver and gold with smatterings of tetrahedrite and garnierite), the valley will be tamed, and its thick vegetation will be harvested and made into farms, to solve Shademine's constant alcohol near-shortage.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2013, 02:39:47 am by Flarp »
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He views any show of emotion as offensive, sees introspection as important, values self-control, and strongly believes that a peaceful and ordered society without dissent would be best. He believes that mastery of a skill is one of the highest pursuits, values nature, and finds romance distasteful. He holds well-laid plans and shrewd deceptions in the highest regard.

Solon64

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Re: Making a cavern-fort
« Reply #28 on: April 27, 2013, 08:15:52 am »

I build almost exclusively in caverns. Its a lot of fun and Fun to see how long you can last. Often its not more than a year, but my longest running has gone for over ten.

Shademines here has done little in the way of sprucing up the caverns, I see. I prefer to civilize my caverns, you know, paths, avenues, small clusters of housing or workshops, storage warehouses, etc.

The natural look is a bit chaotic for me, but can often end up looking quite appealing regardless, nicely done, here's hoping shademines lasts for a while!
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Namfuak

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Re: Making a cavern-fort
« Reply #29 on: April 27, 2013, 12:15:30 pm »

I once tried this, and there are two things that haven't been mentioned.

A.  Dwarves won't marry in their own family.  Unfortunately, my fort died an FPS death (see point B.) before I had a chance to really figure out how far apart they need to be to keep marrying (It seems like the only restriction is parent/sibling/child, so aunts/uncles/cousins might be OK), but you may be better off avoiding this altogether by allowing the first two migrant waves.

B.  Unless you set your immigration limit very low (which I suppose you may as well do anyway), you will have quite a few extra migrants that you are going to have to let starve to death.  This creates two problems - with the advent of ghosts, it means you will need a big mass grave to put them in.  It also turns out that dwarves pathfinding and fighting, 20-30 at a time, is a real FPS killer.  The best way to avoid it is probably to use burrows to atomsmash them, but if you do that you have to use slabs instead of coffins I think.  Alternatively, a drowning chamber would preserve the bodies for entombing, but my point is that you shouldn't make the same mistake I did and make sure you have some way to quickly get rid of unnecessary migrants.
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