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Author Topic: Why/How did Christianity become so dominant in Europe?  (Read 11142 times)

Gervassen

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Re: Why/How did Christianity become so dominant in Europe?
« Reply #30 on: April 02, 2013, 09:04:18 am »

Yeah, Christianity was actually a really peaceful and benevolent religion way back when.

There's no reason to say otherwise, before Rome made it into an authoritarian orthodoxy. Anything you'd bring as an example would be post-350. And by that time, it had already permeated society, and already become "dominant" as the thread title states, without war. So the obvious answer to why war was not mentioned is that there was no holy war at the beginning of Christianity's spread, or for several centuries thereafter.

It depends on how far you mean by "back then". The Christening of northern Europe was done completely under the sword.

Everything the northern Europeans did back then was done under the sword. Lest we forget the kind of people that lived in northern Europe. Ahem. Regardless, I regard anything after 732 as too late to speak of a Christianity unpolluted by outside influences, because Christianity becomes militarized by examples set from a southern neighbor from 630-732. The Crusades are just a long counter-razzia.
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GlyphGryph

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Re: Why/How did Christianity become so dominant in Europe?
« Reply #31 on: April 02, 2013, 09:50:20 am »

There's also this : Christianity was useful. To those in power, it was more useful as a tool of control than the various sorts of paganism were - To those NOT in power, it's foundations provided more in the way of hope, relief, and material benefit through it's concepts of fraternity.

It was also inspirational, and it had at it's head a human being in the form of Jesus, which made it feel a lot more personal. A lot of pagan religions talked about the displeasure of the gods, and that the gods were the cause of natural disasters and that you had to appease them, but the gods were distant - by comparison, the Christian traditions have their emphasis on humanity and gods relationship with humans, rather than on his relationship with environments, spheres, or events. Read the bible, and the whole thing is about humans. People! Read a bunch of Greek myths or Norse mythology, and it's all about Gods. Christianity barely talks about God, to be honest - the Bible, at least, is focused primarily on people. This makes it pretty damn appealing as a religion, and as a narrative, let's be honest - Christianity is powerful! Way more powerful than any pagan religion ever was.

So you've got a more appealing narrative, with plenty of benefits for converting - both methodologically and in real life.

It's honestly not much of a surprise.
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lordcooper

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Re: Why/How did Christianity become so dominant in Europe?
« Reply #32 on: April 02, 2013, 09:53:08 am »

And then there's the first half of the Bible :P
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Ghazkull

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Re: Why/How did Christianity become so dominant in Europe?
« Reply #33 on: April 02, 2013, 09:57:45 am »

Okay so what we have so far is:

Roman Empire imported Israelite Slaves, which spread the religion among the slaves, since brotherly loves and everybody is equal and love thy next like thyself would mean no more slavery. They Get persecuted of course, but since the Roman Empire is slowly losing its CUltural Identity or its Culture is basically repeating itself or copying itself they need a new direction, a vacant space that is filled by the Christianism. So from Slaves to Women from Women to the High and Mighty. And there we have a christianized Roman Empire, which spreads its religion to all its borders.

However now we come to a gap that is confusing me: the Barbarian Invasions. I mean Christianities support and strength vanishes with the Downfall of the Roman Empire, even more so the Barbarian Invasions should have swept away all earlier tries at converting the Germanic Tribes to the North and if i have the movements correctly in my head should have undone all converting work in Gallia and Spain.
And why at any rate would the German Tribes convert to Christianism? I mean they are Tribal Federations with a Warrior Culture. Why would they adopt a Belief preaching love and peace? The argument that Romans threatened them with Military Might is here invalid since they never managed to take them down.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Why/How did Christianity become so dominant in Europe?
« Reply #34 on: April 02, 2013, 09:58:18 am »

Read a bunch of Greek myths or Norse mythology, and it's all about Gods.
...Heracles.

Christianity barely talks about God, to be honest - the Bible, at least, is focused primarily on people.
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Reeeaally?

mainiac

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Re: Why/How did Christianity become so dominant in Europe?
« Reply #35 on: April 02, 2013, 10:03:58 am »

It depends on how far you mean by "back then". The Christening of northern Europe was done completely under the sword.

That was a little appendage at the end of the era.  Christianity was mostly done spreading by the time that the Sassinid-Roman peace broke.  The 4th century war between the Sassinids and Romans was the first real holy war IMHO.  Previous wars might have given lip service to religion but it wasn't a big factor, at least for the major conflicts.  So in the era of faith by the sword, Christianity lost far more territory then it gained.  They conquered Scandanavia and the Baltic Sea region but lost half of the Roman Empire.
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Leafsnail

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Re: Why/How did Christianity become so dominant in Europe?
« Reply #36 on: April 02, 2013, 10:05:30 am »

One factor I'd like to point out is that Christianity was very rigid and stiffly defined compared to earlier religions, particularly after the Romans edited the Bible down to a simple canon.  So "pagan" beliefs would often mix (you can find combinations of Roman and local gods in all sorts of places, for instance, or people who worshipped both Roman and local deities) and dilute, while Christian belief could spread wholesale and displace whatever religion had been there previously.
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GlyphGryph

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Re: Why/How did Christianity become so dominant in Europe?
« Reply #37 on: April 02, 2013, 10:15:43 am »

Reeeaally?
Obviously there's bits of both in all religions. With the personal aspect, many of them would have failed earlier.

But yes, Christianity was way more focused on the people than the Gods. Probably helped that they only had to have one God taking up screen time. Also, Christianity got to cheat a little bit by using Jesus, a person, as a stand in for God. Get it from both angles at the same time.

And then there's the first half of the Bible :P
The part that goes, as it's main elements, stories about "Adam and Eve" -> "Cain and Able" -> "Noah" -> "Abram and his family" -> "Isaac, Jacob, Esau and Joseph" -> "Moses" ?

THAT first half of the Bible? Because at it's core, yeah, I'd say that's about people...
« Last Edit: April 02, 2013, 10:18:12 am by GlyphGryph »
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mainiac

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Re: Why/How did Christianity become so dominant in Europe?
« Reply #38 on: April 02, 2013, 10:21:47 am »

One factor I'd like to point out is that Christianity was very rigid and stiffly defined compared to earlier religions, particularly after the Romans edited the Bible down to a simple canon.  So "pagan" beliefs would often mix (you can find combinations of Roman and local gods in all sorts of places, for instance, or people who worshipped both Roman and local deities) and dilute, while Christian belief could spread wholesale and displace whatever religion had been there previously.

And religions as a whole were going in that direction.  We tend to think of Roman paganism by the classical greco-roman gods but they were pretty marginal by the time of Constantine.  If Christianity had disappeared another theological, organized religion would have taken it's place, just look at Zorastrianism, Mithrism, Neoplatonism.

I guess the question shouldn't be why did Christianity become dominant in Europe but should rather be why did the classical world make a turn towards a new type of religion.
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« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
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Ghazkull

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Re: Why/How did Christianity become so dominant in Europe?
« Reply #39 on: April 02, 2013, 10:22:29 am »

But now your ignoring on purpose the roles God played in those stories Glyph, he was in every single one of them and took up about as much "screentime" as you put it then any of the Norse Gods.

Also your are neglecting that the Christian God is far more impersonal than any of the Norse or Greeek for that matter. the Greek and Norse gods are far more human in their actions (and thus closer to the humans) then the Christian God. He is mostly depicted ( if we ignore the Trinity thing with Jesus for the moment) as a light in the sky saying some stuff then throwing around some divine power and vanishing into nothingness, now compare that to Odin who lived among the humans for ages, or Loki or Thor or any of those gods for that matter. They all are more or less Humans with Divine Powers.

Yes they were more indifferent than Jesus, but certainly not as indifferent and impersonal as the Christian God is often depicted in the Old Testament.
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scriver

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Re: Why/How did Christianity become so dominant in Europe?
« Reply #40 on: April 02, 2013, 10:43:07 am »

Glyphgryph, you are approaching their mythologies from a Christian, or perhaps even DnD-esque position, where there is a clear difference between men an gods, full of arbitrary hierarchies and impassable barriers. This would have been a ridiculous viewpoint to Norse or Greek pagans, whose mythologies still showed clear signs of the animistic faiths they orginated from. To these, gods were people. Special, magical people indeed, but so were all the "men" in the Old Testament. There is very little practical difference between them and their narrative.

And let's not even get started on the saints. "One God" indeed. Well, except for all these hundreds of other dudes who you can pray to if you need help with anything specific rather than just offering general praise.


It depends on how far you mean by "back then". The Christening of northern Europe was done completely under the sword.

Everything the northern Europeans did back then was done under the sword. Lest we forget the kind of people that lived in northern Europe.

They weren't any more warlike any other culture. Particularly not Roman.
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Leafsnail

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Re: Why/How did Christianity become so dominant in Europe?
« Reply #41 on: April 02, 2013, 10:45:21 am »

And religions as a whole were going in that direction.  We tend to think of Roman paganism by the classical greco-roman gods but they were pretty marginal by the time of Constantine.  If Christianity had disappeared another theological, organized religion would have taken it's place, just look at Zorastrianism, Mithrism, Neoplatonism.

I guess the question shouldn't be why did Christianity become dominant in Europe but should rather be why did the classical world make a turn towards a new type of religion.
That's a fair point, and indeed it's likely that all three of those religions had a fairly strong influence on early Christian thought.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Why/How did Christianity become so dominant in Europe?
« Reply #42 on: April 02, 2013, 10:47:30 am »

The part that goes, as it's main elements, stories about "Adam and Eve" -> "Cain and Able" -> "Noah" -> "Abram and his family" -> "Isaac, Jacob, Esau and Joseph" -> "Moses" ?

THAT first half of the Bible? Because at it's core, yeah, I'd say that's about people...
If Yahweh going around screwing with humanity and destroying the world every now and then is about humans, then Diomedes stabbing the Gods in the face sure as hell isn't about the Gods.

lordcooper

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Re: Why/How did Christianity become so dominant in Europe?
« Reply #43 on: April 02, 2013, 10:53:17 am »

Reeeaally?
Obviously there's bits of both in all religions. With the personal aspect, many of them would have failed earlier.

But yes, Christianity was way more focused on the people than the Gods. Probably helped that they only had to have one God taking up screen time. Also, Christianity got to cheat a little bit by using Jesus, a person, as a stand in for God. Get it from both angles at the same time.

And then there's the first half of the Bible :P
The part that goes, as it's main elements, stories about "Adam and Eve" -> "Cain and Able" -> "Noah" -> "Abram and his family" -> "Isaac, Jacob, Esau and Joseph" -> "Moses" ?

THAT first half of the Bible? Because at it's core, yeah, I'd say that's about people...

I was referring mainly to the whole 'wrath of the gods' thing.  The Christian god as portrayed in the old testament isn't exactly the kind of deity I'd break bread with, even if Jesus was a rather cool chap.
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Gervassen

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Re: Why/How did Christianity become so dominant in Europe?
« Reply #44 on: April 02, 2013, 11:01:02 am »

And why at any rate would the German Tribes convert to Christianism? I mean they are Tribal Federations with a Warrior Culture. Why would they adopt a Belief preaching love and peace? The argument that Romans threatened them with Military Might is here invalid since they never managed to take them down.

And it was a set-back for Christianity. However, Christianity had already gained luster as the belief system of those ever-so civilised Romans, and most Barbarian tribes were anything but proud of their own traditions from the heaths and hinterlands of the world. When Clovis, King of the Franks, converted to Christianity at his wife's urging, he had already mostly shed the traditional Germanic gods and was worshipping the more prestigious Roman pagan gods, possibly with a syncretic mixture of Germanic beliefs thrown into the pot.

The Visigoths likewise were already Arian Christians before they were allowed to cross the Danube and settle in Hadrianopolis. They retained a great deal of the Germanic heroic and warrior codes that lent them ferocity in battle, but the process of becoming christian had already been started on a superficial level and would develop further. Sacking and burning Rome was merely a bump on the road toward that ultimate Christian destiny. In the end, most barbarians didn't want to destroy Rome or its institutions, they just wanted to be Rome and its institutions... and were really, really bad at getting it right. They just wanted to pet the rabbits, George!

Also, although the Germanics had war-like cultures and traditions, the Jesus that was sold to the Frankish nobles was much less pacificist than perhaps the version sold to their wives, and to their Gallo-Roman serfs. He was more of a "just lord" presiding over his comitatus of faithful followers in a way that any German could understand, and who generously gave wealth and prosperity to loyal followers in the germanic tradition of a breaker-of-rings. When Clovis was told the story of the crucifixion, he reportedly blurted out, "If only I had been there at the head of my Franks!" which obviously ignores the point of the crucifixion as an intended sacrifice--the Germanics were eager to be Christian and assume the trappings of civilisation, but still remained deeply invested in their warrior traditions.

As for how the Germanic warrior code meshed with Love Thy Neighbor, they generally didn't absorb that part well. But, then again, who really does?

One factor I'd like to point out is that Christianity was very rigid and stiffly defined compared to earlier religions, particularly after the Romans edited the Bible down to a simple canon.  So "pagan" beliefs would often mix (you can find combinations of Roman and local gods in all sorts of places, for instance, or people who worshipped both Roman and local deities) and dilute, while Christian belief could spread wholesale and displace whatever religion had been there previously.

Jesus didn't say: "Yea, verily, if ye love the Lord thy saviour, ye shall raise up a lighted pine tree on my birthday and give gifts to each other. Likewise, on the date of my death, yea verily, celebrate my love of rabbits and eggs."

However, Christians get it from both ends. Either they're too rigid to accept parts of other beliefs, or they wickedly stole parts of other beliefs. Either way, they suffer criticism. In reality, while it's definitely true that Christianity was more organized and unified than some other religions, it's also true that it borrowed bits and pieces of other beliefs and not in the mean-spirited and conniving way that is often suggested. Syncreticism is natural whenever religious beliefs overlap.

They weren't any more warlike any other culture. Particularly not Roman.

I believe I could argue otherwise. Tacitus' Germania already suggests so. The tradition of Germans going to their Things with their spears to show their eligibility to vote compares to the more placid voting of Greeks and Romans as somewhat warlike!
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