Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Baneling]

I refuse to accept a loss to a build that requires more warning time to counter than it takes for the build to destroy a base.

ESPECIALLY when an interval was used to look up a build specifically to counter another. That's cheating. :|

[Dutchling]

Baneling, rushes and cheese are not against the rules in the OP. Neither is the usage of the internet .

Anyway, games:

Game 1
Game 2
Game 3

[Baneling]

Using an interval stated to be having food to have found a counter which is impossible to counter itself without foreknowledge sounds like cheating to me.

More specifically: If you didn't know from the beginning of the game what was going to happen, you'd have to be playing on the assumption that the opponent would be doing something similar to be able to counter it, otherwise you would lose 100% of the time. Using a nigh-uncounterable build is not in the spirit of fair play and should be taken as cheating.

[Dutchling]

But it's not nigh-uncounterable D:? The reason I attacked the overlord with that sentry was because he could easily fly into the base, scout the Dark Shrine, and destroy my whole plan.

Anyway, the result of the match is not open to discussion. You lost the game, and thereby the match.

[Baneling]

~60 second warning is not enough time to get detection and sufficient units to kill 3 DTs, and I don't want to be a part of this tournament if looking up a build in an interval is considered fair play.

That's not testing your ability to play the game, that's testing your ability to write down and read off a build from a sheet of paper.

[Dutchling]

that's testing your ability to write down and read off a build from a sheet of paper.

Nah. I play SC2 in windowed mode. Liquipedia was open in the background

[CrimsonEon]

I'd like to just cut in and say that scouting is perhaps the most crucial element in mid-to-high level play. You may very well have been tipped off to his rush by sending in a drone early and watching their gas for assimilators dropping as a hint to a tech rush, fast expand, or balanced build. Or if you were fortunate and he was lazy about placement, would have seen the dark shrine going down. (Haven't watched the replays but that's my conventional wisdom regarding these situations)

Zerg even have an advantage in this regard because when their drone comes under fire they can morph to extractor and then cancel when it nears completion to continue scouting.

[Dutchling]

Yup. Anyway, first round is almost over. Only the game between MrWillsauce and Guninanrunin needs to be played. Guninanrunin hasn't responded to any of my PMs of the last few days so his spot will go to Solifuge unless he responds within 24h.

[Baneling]

That wouldn't have made a difference. I didn't have any larvae with which to build units even if I had detection or warning.

[Teneb]

Baneling, you seem to be under the impression that everyone has absolutely no build order, scouting is useless and people love playing 1-hour-long matches.

That is not the case. If you lost to a rush it is your fault. Because you didn't scout. Instead of complaining when you lose, watch the replays and try to do better next time.

That's not testing your ability to play the game, that's testing your ability to write down and read off a build from a sheet of paper.

Yeah, because anyone can read about a build, no matter how difficult to pull off it may be, and instantly become awesome at it. That is not so. Training is required. Do you think I manage to pull off 4gates simply because I read about it in the internet? I had to play over 10 matches just to be able to pull it off successfuly once.

Searching for build orders and strategies in the internet is called "improving yourself". Try it sometime.

That wouldn't have made a difference. I didn't have any larvae with which to build units even if I had detection or warning.

If you are playing as zerg you have queens. Queens can inject larvae. You should have ~8 larvae at each hatch at all times.

[Baneling]

...why should I have 8 larvae at each hatch at all times? That would be wasteful when I could be using those larvae instead and building things.

Dutchling literally looked up the build in the interval to use it specifically. He didn't play any practise games in the meantime, he was literally reading it off the liquipedia page as we played.

Looking up build orders and strategies is called "looking up build orders and strategies", not improving yourself.

Using an interval stated to be to eat to look up strategies is practically a definition of cheating.

to influence or lead by deceit, trick, or artifice

I am not under the impression that "everyone has no build order". I have no idea where you got that one from. It's not like I would play differently if I thought that was the case, though.

 Scouting is useless at the level of play most of us are at, as with a few notable exceptions such as seeing an FFE or shenanigans like no barracks by the three minute mark, few people will know enough about the information they get to act on it.

Why would I think that people love playing 1-hour-long matches? That would be pointless.

Losing to a rush I had NO WAY WHATSOEVER of countering is NOT my fault. That is stupid.

List any 10 rushes, aside from DT or banshee, you can think of and I can tell you they can be countered without knowing they're coming at all.

[CrimsonEon]

Say he didn't look up the strategy and already had it in mind prior to the match- would it have affected this result any? After two matches with similar plays from your opponent it would be logical to think the third match will also have a similar strategy. If you don't have a counter in mind for this third game, you're pretty screwed so you may as well quit then. And if you didn't have time to look up a counter for every possible situation before your first match when the possible strategies used by your opponent in the upcoming match are plenty, which only people completely devoted to the game have, then I'd say it's a bit unfair.

Also Deathsword, can you tone it down just a little? The point is to suggest alternative outlook, not bash what is pretty much a legitimate complaint .

[Baneling]

If he had known it anyway and hadn't been literally reading it off liquipedia as we played, I'd still be pissed to losing to something I couldn't possibly beat, but at least I wouldn't have lost because of lying(by omission?).

[Dutchling]

Okay.

I think it is now clear to everyone that there are no unit / timing combination that we are not allowed to use. If you win the match, you win the match. Winning by cheese might work once, but everyone can see the replay, so doing more than once or twice will probably backfire.

And it's not like you're out of the tournament! You might even fight me again and get revenge

[CrimsonEon]

List any 10 rushes, aside from DT or banshee, you can think of and I can tell you they can be countered without knowing they're coming at all.
...
If he had known it anyway and hadn't been literally reading it off liquipedia as we played, I'd still be pissed to losing to something I couldn't possibly beat, but at least I wouldn't have lost because of lying(by omission?).

Well, I'm no Zerg player, but I'm positive there are a few counters to DT and Banshee rushes. For instance, Banshees are absolutely murdered by Hydralisks. By the time the Terran is getting a Starport, you should have a Lair and a Hydralisk den going up if you even so much as suspect that kind of build being possible. Just have a handful of hydras and a spore/overseer and you're set. I've seen this counter to banshees in action myself after trying to backdoor in a few games. DTs on the other hand are a bit tougher to say since as a Terran player I don't oversee as many PvZ games, but I suspect spotting an early double gas is a cue to pick up your detection with spore colonies (you do build EV chambers in your build, right?) and bringing up plenty of zerglings and maybe banelings, the DTs hit hard, but attack slow and probably can't handle a full on surround.

I know the feeling of overpoweredness, I originally thought Mutalisks were the most absurdly overpowered thing ever, just flying around taking out SCVs, and wherever there was resistance they could just fly away with minimal damage and go somewhere that was less protected. But during a TvZ I had recently, I had an epiphany: "What if I just ignore the mutas, walk up to his base, and smack him really hard?" By just sticking some missile turrets on my mineral lines, mutalisk attacks were deterred, but not ultimately stopped since the ball was large enough to take down the turrets. While the mutas were dealing with the turrets, I rallied a MM ball supplemented with seige tanks and wasted his front door, which was laced with plenty of spine crawlers and banelings which would have defeated a straight on attack for sure had it not been for the seige tanks. Point is- the counters are there, you just have to modify your build and mentality a bit to trump them.