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[Phmcw]

I think you're both wrong.

First game don't need more diversity : they have everything you may want, theorically. Look at Skyrim and Mass Effect, the two biggest free-choice RPG of those last years.

The problem is : writing is hard. A shooter about men killing each other is easy : you saw that kind of story since you were 14. A dash of platton, a bit of apocalypse now, season with "saving private Ryan" and you have a senario. Add women to the mix and, ... what? You talk about war rape? But that don't fit the tone! And are you even qualified to speak about it? You don't? And peoples are supposed to accept that the game is still realistic? Should you put a romantic subplot? But that's the cheesiest, most cliche thing to do. And if you do nothing, you just added a skin, you did not add women. No, now you need a talented senarist that tastefully write an original storyline and if he fail or anger the public, it may hurt your sales.

So you never have stories about it because it's simply harder to do. That being said, I'm sure it would be a selling point if well done. But you'd have to avoid cliche.

[Soadreqm]

http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-London/2014/09/17/Exposed-the-secret-mailing-list-of-the-gaming-journalism-elite

So the above article, is asserting that the several major video game journalism sites were in collusion and to disregard professional integrity.

He's since published a whole bunch of these emails, and Kyle Orland, Senior Gaming Editor for Ars Technica and the founder of the list, has admitted that it's real. He seems to be taking the position that there isn't really anything wrong with journalists secretly collaborating with competing publications, and the whole list was just a place for people to harmlessly chat about trivial topics.

Here is something to discuss. What would be your way of creating equality in videogames? We all want equality here and we have established that pretty well. What would you do to solve the problem, if you were a game developer? And what is stopping game developers from solving the problem right now?

I'm not convinced there really is a problem, because a lot of games already do have female protagonists and gay romance options, and many of those games have sold really well. There clearly isn't any kind of system in place preventing games without white boy protags from succeeding, and there are several people already in the industry who want to make those games.

And of course the people outside the industry, working with small-to-nonexistent budgets, making the games they would like to play with little regard to marketability. As long as those people exist, there will be games for everyone.

[Neonivek]

As I always say...

Games where you can play a male or female character often fall under you being a character who is... nebulous at best.

Sheppard has no personality for example. (You can SORT of infer some traits... For example he obviously is humorless, joyless, and grumpy)

I am trying to think of a game where you can play the same character who is either male or female... where you had a definitive and defined personality throughout the game.

That one Fire Emblem game?... Did Robin have a personality?

[Rolan7]

That's true, though it's not necessarily a problem.  A lot (certainly not all) RPGs are based on the PC being nebulous, allowing the player to assume whatever personality they want.

If the developer is trying to tell a certain story then letting the player choose their character's gender is often problematic...  But I can only think of three good reasons:
1) The PC is voiced, and hiring a second voice actor is too expensive (a reasonable reason).  Making a second model is a neglible cost.
2) The game is realistic-historic, which generally precludes females being in any sort of warrior role
3) The plot has aspects which are dependent on the gender of the protagonist (Really a more general form of case 2)

I could point out plenty of examples of simple-plot shooters where the protagonist's gender isn't relevant, much less referenced outright.  But listing a few examples is pointless when so many games exist.  The real question is how many games *couldn't* have had a gender toggle.  As I see it, not many.  FPS protagonists tend to be shallow, only existing to complete the mission.  Why must they be male?

That's the relatively cheap, constructive step I wish game developers would take: offering protagonist customization which includes gender.  The main cost is extra voice acting.  And while that can be prohibitive for indie studios, it's a drop in the bucket for large ones.

[Neonivek]

The ONLY reason I state that Rolan7 is because for SOME small part listing those games as a counter COUNTS and Doesn't count.

It counts for any game where the main character isn't supposed to be a character.

It doesn't count for any game where the main character is meant to be a character.

Saying that, for example, all or most games should take up that model is mostly what I wanted to say shouldn't happen long in advance.

[Rolepgeek]

I think you're both wrong.

First game don't need more diversity : they have everything you may want, theorically. Look at Skyrim and Mass Effect, the two biggest free-choice RPG of those last years.

The problem is : writing is hard. A shooter about men killing each other is easy : you saw that kind of story since you were 14. A dash of platton, a bit of apocalypse now, season with "saving private Ryan" and you have a senario. Add women to the mix and, ... what? You talk about war rape? But that don't fit the tone! And are you even qualified to speak about it? You don't? And peoples are supposed to accept that the game is still realistic? Should you put a romantic subplot? But that's the cheesiest, most cliche thing to do. And if you do nothing, you just added a skin, you did not add women. No, now you need a talented senarist that tastefully write an original storyline and if he fail or anger the public, it may hurt your sales.

So you never have stories about it because it's simply harder to do. That being said, I'm sure it would be a selling point if well done. But you'd have to avoid cliche.

And theoretically, racism doesn't exist in a state supported by government practices.

Sadly, we don't live in theoryland.

If you're a game developer, put effort into your games. Don't be scared of putting that shit in there, stand up for what is right. Ask LGBTQ people about their experiences. Make a character, and make their sexuality part of them, but not necessarily a focus. If webcomics can do it, games certainly can.

But seriously, phmcw, you're probably the person I'm frustrated by most here, because your argument basically consists of 'let writers continue to be lazy/we don't need to do anything, obviously, since it would be tedious to try', at this point, as far as I can tell. Build-your-own character stories are not the ones we're talking about. Besides which, you can't be Trans in those stories. So...

It would not hurt the game industry to try, but they hate trying new things because of the chance it might. It's why games start looking like the same thing over and over again, and why Indie games (can) end up being so popular; they can try new things, and people like new things, when done well.

But also, the whole 'more women just need to become game designers' thing? It's not as simple as that. You can't know how many of them want to be, and get told they can't (because of their gender, but no one ever says that, of course), or that that's a silly idea.

I don't think every game should have a gender toggle. Games with pre-established characters, that aren't build your own or the like? It's fine. When it becomes a problem is when 90% of non choose-your-own games have male protagonists.

Plus, where's all my goddamn fanservice? I want my pretty boys, too, damnit. Fanservice is fine if it's not over the top, but I want my eye candy with some variety. And you almost never see it.

And it makes me sad.

[Neonivek]

When it becomes a problem is when 90% of non choose-your-own games have male protagonists

Didn't we establish that this is ONLY true if you assume gender neutral characters are male?

As well games where there is more then one selectable main character tend to almost always have a female character making the presence of a male one pretty moot.

"But seriously, phmcw, you're probably the person I'm frustrated by most here, because your argument basically consists of 'let writers continue to be lazy/we don't need to do anything, obviously, since it would be tedious to try', at this point, as far as I can tell"

Honestly? I am actually fine with it and find his opinion to round out the discussion very well. You are NOT going to get diversity in a market that isn't set up for diversity no matter how much you might want to. As well a lot of games have more diverse casts then we are honestly giving credit, and of those games the really popular ones are diverse.

The new sort of idea I kind of have is that honestly? You know what really hurts videogames? Polarized politics. We are all on the same side here.

We aren't trying to cut through a wall of apathy right now.

And Heck if you want to get outraged at diversity... How many videogames have non-white protagonists who clearly human and have a clear visible nationality? For the sake of argument I am going to exclude Asian because JRPGs.

How many games feature people of Mexican descent? Most games we play are made in the USA and they DO make up 10% of the population and conceivably would be 10% of the gaming audience.

I am not saying women in videogames don't have issues... but we are past the point where we need to be mad at someone because they don't see the problem and argue there isn't.

As well to what extent do we want to support this tokenism versus trying to encourage it naturally?

Don't be scared of putting that shit in there, stand up for what is right.

And get mauled for it by the very same people you meant to include. It is a shame that there are plenty of examples of authors who wrote characters to defy convention and they were seen as terrible in other ways. We just don't like in the sort of world.

It isn't that I disagree with you Rolepgeek, it is that I can only go so far with your point of view.

[Phmcw]

You don't understand what I was saying :  there is no chances that the generally bad and lazy writing suddently create good characters. The current caracter suck at being male, why would you think they would be good at being female or at having a different sexual orientation?

I can't, for the life of me, in my 20 years of gaming think of one game that had actually good story and characterisation, if I held games to books standarts.
Let's look at my favorite, story driven games.

The witcher is a good game, but the hero and protagonists are desesperately cliche. I tried to read the books but without the ability of making your own choices, they were just bad.
The stalker serie's protagonists have no personality. The best thing in that game is the zone and its mutants.
Paper please was good, but once again because of its mechanics, atmosphere. No characterisation in that game at all.
Half life's hero is mute. The npc are never developed (I didn't play half life 2, I probably should).
I played all final fantasy untill final fantasy 7. Make these stories into a book and you'd have a book for pre-teens.

Now Amnesia, a machine for pig have an interesting main character and could make a good horror book. That's the only one I can think about.

Edit: forgot gta ,  wich would make some VERY cheesy gangster books.

[Putnam]

Try playing the Mother series, especially Mother 3.

[MrWiggles]

When it becomes a problem is when 90% of non choose-your-own games have male protagonists

Didn't we establish that this is ONLY true if you assume gender neutral characters are male?

As well games where there is more then one selectable main character tend to almost always have a female character making the presence of a male one pretty moot.

Exactly. Most game, and maybe the majority of games, are gender agnostic. It'd be hard to get a good count on that. But it'd be easy to see why that would seem true. Any game where you can be male or female, any game where the player agency isn't human and or clearly gendered. Most Silent Protagonist games.

The games that this thread about, is a very small amount of mostly recent games. It also feels, though maybe not actually, targeted at, FPS primarily.

[Rolan7]

Exactly. Most game, and maybe the majority of games, are gender agnostic. It'd be hard to get a good count on that. But it'd be easy to see why that would seem true. Any game where you can be male or female, any game where the player agency isn't human and or clearly gendered. Most Silent Protagonist games.

The games that this thread about, is a very small amount of mostly recent games. It also feels, though maybe not actually, targeted at, FPS primarily.

It's hard to talk about "most games" in a constructive way.  I feel like most games feature grizzled white male protagonists, but that's just my opinion.  Do low-budget or unsuccessful games count the same as the games which make news and are actively discussed?  Because here are the 10 top-selling games of 2013:

Grand Theft Auto V
Call of Duty: Ghosts
FIFA 2014
Pokemon X&Y
Assassin's Creed IV: Black Flag
The Last of Us
Animal Crossing: A New Leaf
Tomb Raider
Monster Hunter IV
Bioshock Infinite

So:
3 male protagonists
Some male protagonists and a dog
A ton of male soccer players
Both genders (I assume)
Male protagonist
Male protagonist escorts a girl
Both genders I think?
Female character!
Both genders, full customization
Male protagonist escorts a girl

So, we have:
6 games with only male protagonists
3 games which allow choice
1 Lara Croft

Which is, I admit, less one-sided than I expected.  10 is a tiny sample size, but I was expecting so lopsided that it'd mean something.  Maybe sometime I'll get bored and go through a top-100 list sometime.

[Neonivek]

You know what is ESPECIALLY funny?

Bioshock Infinite AND "The Last of Us" are both games where the female character is the true main character. More so in Bioshock infinite where you are COMPLETELY unimportant.

This is ignoring that The Last of Us you play her at several points and she is the star of the DLC.

[Rolan7]

I know you've said that about Bioshock Infinite before, but I can't agree.  Cortana isn't the main character of Halo just because her story's far more interesting than Master Chief's. 

What they've done is created interesting female characters then said "Now, play as these shallow tough guys".  Cortana, Krystal, and Elizabeth are interesting supporting characters, not main characters.

[Tack]

With both Bioshock infinite AND the last of us, I would not term them as 'Shallow tough guys'.

They're practically oozing paternal instinct, and gruff man-feelings.
It still panders to the male audience but at least they've finally figured out a way to get to us, rather than "ARE YOU A BAD ENOUGH DUDE?".

[Neonivek]

I know you've said that about Bioshock Infinite before, but I can't agree.  Cortana isn't the main character of Halo just because her story's far more interesting than Master Chief's. 

What they've done is created interesting female characters then said "Now, play as these shallow tough guys".  Cortana, Krystal, and Elizabeth are interesting supporting characters, not main characters.

In Halo I'd agree... Ultimately the story is about Master Chief overcoming the odds and all that with the other characters just being side stories.

In Bioshock Infinite where you are as close to a non-character as you can get without actually just being a ghost who watches events unfold... As well all the events are really centered around her, everything else just being an excuse to get you there.

Just the fact that the male character in Bioshock infinite is vehemiately against using his brain at any point it would affect the plot pretty much cements this.

THEN AGAIN the other explanation is that Bioshock Infinite's storytelling abilities are abysmal and ridiculously lacking in intelligence... but its reviews are too high to assume that.