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[Phmcw]

If you don't know the basics, that is fine. Learning is good. Ignorance is not a sin. But for Khorne's sake, stop pontificating if you have no clue

You know, America is dead last in humans right among industrialised nations. Your emprisonment rate is the highest in the world, you have full fleged race riot every six month, and have literally the most unequal healthcare in the developed world. Policemen seems to be executing innocent citizens in total impunity, you lost all right to privacy, your employer can make policies on who you can and cannot date within the company, men have no maternity leave,...

Maybe it's time to admit that you have the basis wrong, and that you are not going anywhere until you change them.

[lijacote]

If you don't know the basics, that is fine. Learning is good. Ignorance is not a sin. But for Khorne's sake, stop pontificating if you have no clue

You know, America is dead last in humans right among industrialised nations. Your emprisonment rate is the highest in the world, you have full fleged race riot every six month, and have literally the most unequal healthcare in the developed world. Policemen seems to be executing innocent citizens in total impunity, you lost all right to privacy, your employer can make policies on who you can and cannot date within the company, men have no maternity leave,...

Maybe it's time to admit that you have the basis wrong, and that you are not going anywhere until you change them.

What? I am not American, and I have never said that equality thrives there. Far from it. Nominal equality before a part of the law, but exceptions exist for racial minorities and women - how many abortion-denying groups are there, and how many of them want to bomb clinics? It is absurd how wrong things are there!

Things are not that much better elsewhere. Even here in the European North, the supposedly most equal region in the world, our political right is rising to try and curb women's rights, to stomp on immigrants. They hold hands with actual nazis. These people are in parliament.

I won't even go into the attitudes I see here every god damn day.

[Rolan7]

Why are women exempt? Because they are deemed unfit, or that they have a DUTY to give birth or raise children. Such privilege.

Yes, being exempt from selective service is literally a privilege.  I'm glad you acknowledge that even sarcastically.
And yes, the reasons for that exemption are lousy and based on a culture of sexism - that doesn't somehow make men privileged for having to sign up.

The fact is that laws and scholarships directly benefit women and minorities.  The legal system itself still persecutes minorities, but also men in domestic disputes...  I don't feel like supporting that claim right now, so I don't expect you to believe it if you haven't witnessed it.

This affirmative action is generally a good thing, because it's helping to undo centuries of legal and cultural oppression.  I know our culture is still very sexist, racist, and homophobic.  So it's fine that white males are literally disadvantaged by the law, I guess. 

See, it's hard to support that wholeheartedly when I've seen family members get shafted by it.  Unable to get scholarships or jobs due to being white males.  Some of us understand why these quotas are necessary to undo stuff that, in very very broad strokes, people of our color did to people of other colors.  Others throw in with conservative ideologies because, right here and now, they are hard working yet poor and financially persecuted and those ideologies let them be outraged.

The "patriarchy" doesn't send these people a check, in fact it keeps them poor.  And millions of dollars are spent convincing these people that minorities and women are the problem.  It's not a hard sell, particularly when those groups are whining about how "privileged" all white male people are.

But the truth is that these policies ARE necessary, even though they punish people who had nothing to do with the problem.  They're the only way to combat the unfair financial imbalances between racial groups.

It's a burden though, a real actual financial burden on people who did nothing wrong, so I'll thank you to check YOUR privilege.

I didn't say men have no problems.  Address what I say, not what you think would be nice to respond to.

Oh come on, you keep accusing people of denying sexism altogether when nobody is doing that.  Weren't you leaving?

[Phmcw]

Even here in the European North, the supposedly most equal region in the world, our political right is rising to try and curb women's rights, to stomp on immigrants. They hold hands with actual nazis. These people are in parliament.

Why? What did you mess up? Or are peoples just unreasonable and evil?

[Reelya]

and even without that peace of paper and the entire war slaavery would've been gone fifty or so years later.

How can you say this like fifty more years of people living in slavery isn't important?

It was also a waste of time fighting the NAZIs. They clearly would have imploded some time after Hitlers death of old age, just like the Soviets eventually collapsed on their own. We should have let them invade, then just wait them out. There probably would have been less overall deaths that way.

[lijacote]

Why are women exempt? Because they are deemed unfit, or that they have a DUTY to give birth or raise children. Such privilege.

Yes, being exempt from selective service is literally a privilege.  I'm glad you acknowledge that even sarcastically.
And yes, the reasons for that exemption are lousy and based on a culture of sexism - that doesn't somehow make men privileged for having to sign up.

They are privileged in not being belittled. If you want to ignore context, then I suppose the cripple and the billionaire are equals in that they don't have to walk anywhere. And FYI: I see no sane reason to treat men differently in this matter. So, yes, it is a privilege, but it is a cursed privilege. I would not take it.

Domestic dispute

I am not arguing that men have everything perfectly. Yes, they are left in a ditch in many cases -- fatherhood is not respected,  paternity leave is nlt a given, custody issues -- the list goes on. The source of a lot of that is not, however, female privilege, it's the restrictive gender norms that leave no space for a loving father. It's sexism, and I oppose it like any other form of discrimination. That, however, does not make up for the disparity between men and women generally -- there is no balance. Ultimately, though,  this is not a question of who has it worse. All I ask is that sexism is acknowledged without any weaseling around some sort of false notion lf balance or equity in suffering. No, fuck all oppressive gender normativity. That is feminism.

This affirmative action is generally a good thing, because it's helping to undo centuries of legal and cultural oppression.  I know our culture is still very sexist, racist, and homophobic.  So it's fine that white males are literally disadvantaged by the law, I guess.

We are in agreement, then. Inequality will not be solved by treating everyone the same -- thinking that that would lead to fairness is a pipe dream in a reality where we are NOT equal.

See, it's hard to support that wholeheartedly when I've seen family members get shafted by it.  Unable to get scholarships or jobs due to being white males.  Some of us understand why these quotas are necessary to undo stuff that, in very very broad strokes, people of our color did to people of other colors.  Others throw in with conservative ideologies because, right here and now, they are hard working yet poor and financially persecuted and those ideologies let them be outraged.

And yet, the poor and the racially maligned have it worse. Action needs to be taken, and unfortunately that means that those in the privileged position will need to take that bitter pill.

The "patriarchy" doesn't send these people a check, in fact it keeps them poor.  And millions of dollars are spent convincing these people that minorities and women are the problem.  It's not a hard sell, particularly when those groups are whining about how "privileged" all white male people are.

But the truth is that these policies ARE necessary, even though they punish people who had nothing to do with the problem.  They're the only way to combat the unfair financial imbalances between racial groups.

It's a burden though, a real actual financial burden on people who did nothing wrong, so I'll thank you to check YOUR privilege.

What? Equality cost the... wait. I'm not sure we are quite speaking about the same thing. I never said that affirmative action isn't necessary. What the hell is going on?

Oh come on, you keep accusing people of denying sexism altogether when nobody is doing that.  Weren't you leaving?

Nope. Wasn't leaving, was stopping one among many conversations. What sexism have I denied, now?

[lijacote]

Even here in the European North, the supposedly most equal region in the world, our political right is rising to try and curb women's rights, to stomp on immigrants. They hold hands with actual nazis. These people are in parliament.

Why? What did you mess up? Or are peoples just unreasonable and evil?

I am the last person you will find saying that people are just naturally incapable of justice.

As for why... well. I am not the most learned historian or theoretician, but I think this is a failure of social democracy. The post-war achievements of equality are undermined by the persistence of capitalism, or the rule of the capitalist class. Any gains made in this global system will be eroded. Only a change of the ruling class can bring lasting change.

But that is another topic, even if feminism and socialism are inextrivably linked, even if oppression everywhere is linked. I am simply not ready to argue against two kinds of reactionary nonsense at the same time.

[Redzephyr01]

Please, explain to me how being forced to be in the military is a privilege.

[Rolan7]

lijacote I'm agreeing with you that affirmative action is necessary.

It's also legal persecution of the people you claim are oh-so privileged.  These people aren't privileged, they're taking hits for the team, and often driven to conservative ideologies by people who dismiss them and their issues as "privileged white males".

You were accusing people of denying all sexism, though they weren't at all:

See, GreatJustice, what your post boils down is "you're stupid and wrong". Forgive me for trying to seriously argue with you, clearly my complex social theory (yeah sure) is too damned simple or something.

I'm done. There is no point talking with you. Like a god damned wall of denial. Have it, then: there is no sexism,  no racism, no homophobia, it's all equal and people being too damned sensitive. Equality has been achieved, yay!

If there's anything that looks like racism or whatever, then, well, we'll just have to construct such scientific hypotheses as "people are stupid", "people are sensitive" -- damn history, hundreds of years of slavery are nothing! Legal rape in marriage? Pffft. A minor oversight surely. The claim that women are dismissed? A lie! Ferguson? Just a bunch of stupid and oversensitive people.

Screw you. You replace analysis with nothing. I am not going to engage you, since NOTHING will convince you. Keep your cozy delusion.

Mindmaker, this is what I mean. When your starting line is "there is no social injustice", that's plain denial and/or ignorance. When you've spent years being harassed for being feminine, gay or whatever, and some asshole decides that's nothing... well. Well.

[lijacote]

Red: Being considered capable is a relative privilege. Could you read what I say?

Rolan:What? Affirmative action is needed but those in the better position aren't privileged? That is precisely what being privileged means.

Alternatively, give me your definition of privilege -- perhaps then this will make sense.

[lijacote]

Double postan.

[Redzephyr01]

Being considered capable is a relative privilege. Could you read what I say?

It's not a privilege if you are literally being forced to risk your life against your will for a conflict you don't support. Being considered capable doesn't mean shit when you're dead.

[Glowcat]

Pretty good article on why the draft issue isn't "female privilege" The responsibility of social systems is on those groups who have the power creating the unequal situation. Pointing out advantages that arise out of a forced role only shows one's inability to understand that fact and futile to the goal of making progress in achieving equality. It's analogous to wandering into an ancient Roman household and scolding the slaves for not being independent.

[lijacote]

Being considered capable is a relative privilege. Could you read what I say?

It's not a privilege if you are literally being forced to risk your life against your will for a conflict you don't support. Being considered capable doesn't mean shit when you're dead.

I have never said that being considered capable is nothing but good -- duty is a double-edged sword. It should not be limited to men.

As for service -- it is not just men that go there. It is the poor who have no other choice. It is drudgery. It is not at all a perfect place to be in. Emancipation for soldiers too, by all means, they are workers and humans just as well.

This is not a black and white issue, and I do not think this system is beneficial to men. I oppose it for all our sakes, in all its forms, so stop insisting that I think otherwise.

[Baffler]

They are privileged in not being belittled. If you want to ignore context, then I suppose the cripple and the billionaire are equals in that they don't have to walk anywhere. And FYI: I see no sane reason to treat men differently in this matter. So, yes, it is a privilege, but it is a cursed privilege. I would not take it.

I'll take being "insulted" over being forced to fight and very likely die in some pointless war any day, and I suspect you would too. Even having said that, I fail to see the insult in not being included in the pool of warm bodies to put uniforms on. I've said it already, men are seen as expendable. Women are not. This may not be easy to understand from outside, but it is a terrifying prospect. But I'm having trouble understanding what you mean by "I see no sane reason to treat men differently in this matter." Could you please elaborate?

All I ask is that sexism is acknowledged without any weaseling around some sort of false notion lf balance or equity in suffering.

Ultimately, though,  this is not a question of who has it worse

We all seem to be in agreement then.

Pretty good article on why the draft issue isn't "female privilege" The responsibility of social systems is on those groups who have the power creating the unequal situation. Pointing out advantages that arise out of a forced role only shows one's inability to understand that fact and futile to the goal of making progress in achieving equality. It's analogous to wandering into an ancient Roman household and scolding the slaves for not being independent.

The information in that article is outdated, and sometimes outright wrong. Women are not required to register for the Selective Service program, the draft by another name. Anything else is pretty much fair game for any volunteer. You might not get the job in the military that the recruiter promised, I grant, but neither does anyone else. To be clear: any woman can volunteer.