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[SomeStupidGuy]

Well, I was thinking that is kind of an odd point of view that getting the name right of the best-known female game MC is just semantics is kind of an odd sort of attitude to take when we're in a thread talking about taking women seriously in games.

Not really? There're more important things to concern oneself with in this thread.

[Reelya]

IDK "I've never played it but I'm totally going to judge it and not even bother getting the character's name right, however <completely objective and valid criticism follows>" doesn't seem to be a good starting point for a reasonable discussion.

All i said was "this is her name, get it right". Which is a valid point. Let's get agreed-upon facts right so the discussion is only about the actual topic.

The rest of the argument is people claiming they didn't need to get it right.

[Rolan7]

But Lara doesn't rhyme with car at all... it's Lar-a.  Here's a pronunciation example, which matches the game (which I played, for one):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=l_b6DkJ8ifI

And here's Laura:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EeJbPzHsEGg

Frankly they sound almost identical to me, but neither rhymes with "car".  Not that any of this matters at all...  Playing the game didn't teach me the difference between Lara and Laura.

Maybe it would be ideal if we all played every game we discussed, but is quibbling over pronunciation the "reasonable discussion" you're looking for?

[Reelya]

I never brought up the pronunciation part of it, so that wasn't even part of my discussion.

I only said "spell it the way it's written". Assuming you're just reading about the game in print there are uncountable sources with the right spelling.

Sure, we can't play every game under discussion, but then again we have to give people who did play a game and have something to say about it a reasonable amount of credit, and not just act like "we know better".

And there is a lot to like in how Lara is portrayed, especially in the early games (I haven't played the recent ones so have no opinion) she's strong, smart, resourceful and has goals, she also doesn't need to saved by any man.

Sure, she has boobs, but how big the boobs are is exaggerated. They're not all that big compared to real-world models or anything, and it's not like you can zoom close-up or that the boobs are on screen all the time either. Considering that the original boobs are made of about 4 polygons, they're hardly that detailed, many women naturally have much larger boobs than Lara.

Tomb Raider 1 gameplay video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0iAd4egX2PA

[Rolan7]

Lara is an unusual spelling here compared to Laura, and the spelling barely comes up in the actual game.  It's a bunch of characters saying what sounds like "Laura".

Case in point: when Lara Croft dies in a game, they said that was "objectifying" her death, even though she's the main character. But when a male character suffers the same fate, it's not objectifying them because they main character is meant to represent the self, and of course wouldn't it be silly to say you objectified yourself? Prince of Persia deaths would be the example here.

So is the main character (the players avatar) of a series objectified in this way or not? They seem to be just bringing up examples to suit themselves and ignoring when it happens to characters in a way that doesn't sell the theory.

Hell, in Heretic 2 you can explode into meaty gibbets. Much more disgusting deaths than Tomb Raider, but I've never heard anyone say that that objectifies men ... it's the switch from 1st person to 3rd person which raised the gore levels for the MC, not the fact that Lara is a woman. Tomb Raider just came along about the time it became practical to have an animated 3PS game.

The whole "objectification" argument is too semantic for me, but I can understand someone thinking that the new Tomb Raider *fetishizes* the deaths.  Lara is characterized as weak, struggling to survive - no problem yet, Far Cry 3 did the same thing - but then puts her through a variety of contrived, torture-like situations.  Lots of graphical impaling, though also plenty of dashing and crushing.  One of the first impalings wasn't even a death, but a necessary plot point...  She escapes some full-body bondage only to fall on a piece of rebar which goes straight through her abdomen.  Hmmm.

But actually I don't think the game was overly sexualized at all.  It's more like kicking a puppy:  It gets an emotional reaction from people.  The exact reaction differs from person to person, but they seemed to be shooting for pity, then compassion, then admiration.

Of course some people will have a different reaction to a hot girl getting abused, but I honestly think they weren't the target audience.  The immature hormonal demographic responsible for chainmail bikinis isn't into *that*, generally.  The horrible experiences were a necessary part of the origin story the developers wanted to tell, and I think it really worked.

(So I can see why people would think it's sexual pandering, but I disagree)

[Neonivek]

Laura Croft is by no means a 'toned down sexual appearance'? What the hell do you think of as 'toned down'? That she isn't actually shown having sex? Jeezus. I mean, regardless of how the game was advertised, which is it's own problem, there's the issue of the origin of Laura Croft, the reason for her tremendous cup size, and worse, the reason they kept it.

You are aware that they redesigned Lara Croft right?

Also "issue of the origin"?... They made a strong female lead, accidentally made her bra size too large... and then kept it that way because she was more popular that way... but never treated her any differently.

If you go by classic Lara Croft her ONLY sexualization is that she has large breasts.

(So I can see why people would think it's sexual pandering, but I disagree)

My problem is less that you couldn't interpret it that way, I mean there is clear victimization of a young woman for shock appeal...

But rather that the argument boils down to "Woman in peril? MYSOGYNY!" and when it is brought up that it happens to men too, of course it is different because "Lets make women feel guilty for being women by saying that putting them in anything but a ultra-clean role is wrong somehow".

The problem is that a lot of people basically write a list of "Things that happen to women that is wrong" and use it as a codified rulebook for how write females. So for example the old "Women have things happen to them, men have things happen to others", where people will honestly argue that women shouldn't be victimized in fiction.

[Reelya]

Spoiler: New Lara (click to show/hide)

And there was already a difference between in-game Lara and "promotional artwork" Lara. Much more pronounced boobs in the promo art than the actual early games, which is the common disconnect between the devs and marketing, to a degree.

Lara from the original game:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Seriously, the boobs were never all that, most of the reaction was pre-pubescent "OMG there's boobs in a game!" reaction. The focus and reaction says more about game culture (and pop culture) at the time than about the game itself.

Her head is disproportionately large compared to her body, if anything. Moreso than the boobs. She's just not a proportionately human figure by any stretch, she's like a cartoon character, and singling out the boobs is basically silly and puerile. Many cartoon characters have boobs which are almost as big as their head, Lara doesn't even come close by that standard. They're like a B or C-Cup.

[Neonivek]

To me it isn't even the size of a woman's breasts that matters it is how a game frames it.

Why? Because women with large breasts exist.

There is a huge difference between how Taki from Soul Calibur is handled versus Tifa... and both those characters had similar sized breasts in their respective games (Tifa though was a result of a graphical issue rather then because they wanted a sexy girl in their game.

Her head is disproportionately large compared to her body, if anything

Its a graphical thing. If they made her head proportional it would look... odd.

[Glowcat]

Oh hey, the argument drifted towards Sexual Objectification again.

I liked Laci Green's take for a starting point on understanding the issue (at least non-academically). Bad writing... has almost jack-all to do with Sexual Objectification. Intentionally making a character shallow to fulfill a sexual fetish at the expense of the character is the closest I can see to that and even then it's not "bad writing" since it's done intentionally for a certain effect, but that's getting dragged into semantics.

[Neonivek]

Oh hey, the argument drifted towards Sexual Objectification again

It is hard to avoid especially since right now that IS the topic of the videos.

Which is less "Drifted towards" as more "Started to be a bit more on topic"

I am waiting until part 2 is out before I really look at Anita's video in depth >_< but just 2 minutes was all I needed to remember why I don't like her videos too too much.

[Mindmaker]

There's actually quite a bit happening right now that would fit the theme ot this thread.
However the Zoe Quinn incident would be too inflammatory I believe and the whole outrage over the Akiba's Trip translation is just ridiculous to me.
Still, anybody who's interested may read up on it.

[Graknorke]

Akiba's Trip

Haha what. People are upset over this?

[Mindmaker]

Akiba's Trip

Haha what. People are upset over this?

They are. I'd rather just post the forum, because capturing the whole thing on twitter is just a pain.
And here's the reply of one of the more vocal oposers.

[Leafsnail]

Just to be clear, this is the game that is literally about stripping young women (e: and that's being generous). And this is the controversial part??

[Ogdibus]

The "trap" meme is used as an excuse to murder trans women.  That's why it's an issue.  There is hardly any chance that this will become an intelligent discussion.  It's probably best to leave it alone.