Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Putnam]

They kind of are the same thing, though, as they both objectify the characters.

Bikinis intentionally. Bad writing is bad writing.

[DJ]

IDK, they both seem like equally desperate attempts to score points with the audience.

[Fniff]

A desperate attempt to score points with the audience is a pretty good way to describe writing.

[DJ]

Not good writing.

[SomeStupidGuy]

Eh, that's just a more blunt way of putting it.
Most writing tries to get the audience drawn in and empathizing with the characters. So y'know, put it down as much as you want, that's what writing tries to do. Spelling it out that way is a bit reductionistic, but still mostly accurate.

Admittedly, it's much more evident with bad writing.

(This post was basically just me ptw-ing except in a more constructive way, by the by. ;v)

[DJ]

Good writing tries to convey a story or an idea and appealing to the audience is in service of doing that, bad writing tries to appeal to the audience and a story or an idea is just means to that end.

[Fniff]

You can't have a good story without appealing to the audience and you can't appeal to the audience without a good story.

[Reelya]

A desperate attempt to score points with the audience is a pretty good way to describe writing.

So there's no such thing as "pandering" or "fanservice" by that measure, since literally everything is "pandering" to the audience and "giving the fans what they want" / "fanservice". It may be true technically but it completely misses the point, and not in a helpful descriptive way.

DJ is perfectly justified in his opinion that specific plot devices are over-used in a cheap, shitty way to pander to the audience.

You can't have a good story without appealing to the audience and you can't appeal to the audience without a good story.

The first clause "You can't have a good story without appealing to the audience" is true, but you made a logical error because that's not commutative with "you can't appeal to the audience without a good story".

Take a quick look at what the most popular things are in any genre / medium, in sales terms. They're not necessarily (or maybe ever) the ones with the best writing. Infinite Stratos 2 was the biggest-selling anime DVD of it's season. And it's writing is absolute shit. Non Non Biyori was rated much higher in polls by the Japanese public, but only sold 1/3rd the number of copies. Because Infinite Stratos 2 has uncensored boobs on the DVD and Non Non Biyori does not. Good stories aren't what sells. Sex and guns are.

[Fniff]

I am being cynical here, and I am probably missing the point. Anyway, fanservice and appealing to the audience are not the same thing. Appealing to the audience (In my book, anyway) means using techniques in the writing that engages in the audience, not necessarily in a positive way. You can make the audience feel terrible and still appeal to them (Spec Ops The Line, for instance). Fanservice is basically throwing the techniques at the audience so they can start liking you. Oh, like action? INFINITE EXPLOSIONS. Oh, like characters? GIRLS IN BIKINIS AND GUYS IN SPEEDOS. Oh, like romance? ENDLESS ENDLESS ROMANCE.

Fanservice is essentially trying to make the audience be interested in the story when they have no reason to, and you have no ability to make them interested except through crass measures. I may be flip-flopping a little, I'm not exactly amazing at discourse.

[Reelya]

"A desperate attempt to score points" and "fanservice" are the same thing by your definition then.

[Fniff]

*shrugs* I concede the argument, I'm not smart enough for it.

[Neonivek]

What I think Fniff means anyhow is that ultimately to have a good story it must in some way be attractive to the audience.

He is justifying that "pandering" isn't necessarily a bad thing.

[SomeStupidGuy]

As a generally rule of thumb, the vast majority of successful media panders to the audience. That's just the fact of the matter. That's the point, it's trying to entertain you.

Now, the main issue comes down to when it hides the pandering badly, in the case of fanservice.

[Neonivek]

Well Fanservice USUALLY isn't "Pandering Badly" it is pandering at the expense of usually women.

Though... Yeah a lot of fan service is also dumb and distracting.

[Graknorke]

They kind of are the same thing, though, as they both objectify the characters.

Bikinis intentionally. Bad writing is bad writing.

I think that you overestimate the amount of thought that goes into throwing bikini'd ladies into a game.
It's definitely not on the level of, "Let's put this thing in to objectify women in our game."