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[Rolan7]

An ideal movie though, one which deserves the highest rating of gender equality, should pass the Bechdel test (or also fail the reverse Bechdel).

I agree on passing the Bechdel Test in general, but of course there are alwsys going to be exceptions which are non-the-less excellent movies, e.g. 12 Angry Men or Shawshank Redemption are both great stories, and the gender-balance in those is integral to the storyline/setting. Sure you could cram 2 girls in there talking about the weather, but that would probably detract from the story, even though it now "passes the bechdel test", and grading to the bechdel test sounds like you'd merely cram some extras in there to fit the legal requirement.

The bechdel test makes more sense to apply once something has passed the "2 women" criteria. For movies with less than two women, you need to ask why that is? Historical drama, prison drama, war drama, based on a novel, etc, are legitimate reasons for a gender bias in the story.

I don't agree with demanding every film pass the Bechdel test, or any other arbitrary measure we make up. Requiring certain attributes in every story ever made is basically like requiring every color of the rainbow in every painting ever made: you've just reduced the number of possible paintings that can be painted, and do we really want to do that?

As for a perfect movie "failing the reverse bechdel test" wouldn't that just make it sexist the other way rather than gender-neutral?

I agree with most of this, and I misspoke with the "ideal" thing.  What I meant to say was that, for a movie to get the ideal perfect rating of gender equality, it ought to pass both tests (or neither). 

12 Angry Men is a great movie, very thought provoking, with no female characters.  It doesn't need female characters to be great.  It is not, however, an exceptional example of gender equality.  Most movies don't need to be.  This test, like the PG/R/AO rating, has nothing to do with movie quality.  It's just some extra information people might take into consideration, particularly for movies which *could* easily get a high rating.

It is easy to technically pass the Bechdel test, which is why it's only a *requirement* for a perfect score.  There are loads of movies which pass the test which I'm sure don't receive the perfect score, or particularly good scores at all.

About the reverse Bechdel, I said that a movie that fails it might get a pass on failing the normal Bechdel.  It'd be a simple solution for movies with very few characters.  I'm sure there are artsy films out there where a lone man and woman adventure as equals.  I can't think of any off the top of my head...

Of course, it's arguable whether such a movie could fully represent gender equality with only two characters.  Sexism doesn't make sense with a population of two, it's a group dynamic.

[Neonivek]

it's arguable whether such a movie could fully represent gender equality with only two characters

You probably could never do that with a cast of hundreds... and heck you aren't trying to represent genders anyhow.

The typical male action movie character isn't really a representative of males.

Though people always say that they are a "male power fantasy" we rarely hear about what the "female power fantasy" is.

[DJ]

Sex and the City.

[Rolan7]

Okay, I laughed 

I haven't seen the show, but if they *never* discuss anything but men, that is a bit sexist despite them all being women.  I'm pretty sure their day to day lives come up a lot though.

Might be one of the few shows that commonly fails the reverse-bechdel, though.  That and most episodes of MLP.

[Rolepgeek]

it's arguable whether such a movie could fully represent gender equality with only two characters

You probably could never do that with a cast of hundreds... and heck you aren't trying to represent genders anyhow.

The typical male action movie character isn't really a representative of males.

Though people always say that they are a "male power fantasy" we rarely hear about what the "female power fantasy" is.

It's rarely catered to, unfortunately. Take the latest summer blockbuster and switch all the genders and you'll be somewhere in the ballpark, but not exactly.

Due to current society, it often has to do with overcoming the impediments set in your way, taking charge of your own life, and being your own person.

Aka, what most men already have. I'm not saying women don't, don't get me wrong; there's plenty who have already taken control of their own lives, and there's certainly men who are still being led around by the nose or getting neckstomped. Just, not as many.

Side thought: I really think stories should be written without genders, then have them assigned at the very end of the writing process, unless some sort of focus of the script relates to it. *shrugs*

[Bauglir]

Side thought: I really think stories should be written without genders, then have them assigned at the very end of the writing process, unless some sort of focus of the script relates to it. *shrugs*

Meanwhile, I just think that's a valid way of writing some stories. Given that gender roles exist, there's going to be an implicit message whatever you choose, and you can't entirely get away from that just by wishing it weren't so. In a lot of cases, it's something that merits thinking about at any arbitrary point in the writing process.

[Leafsnail]

Side thought: I really think stories should be written without genders, then have them assigned at the very end of the writing process, unless some sort of focus of the script relates to it. *shrugs*

Seems like a great way to make sure your characters are uniformly the same gender in all but name.

[Bauglir]

Actually, on further reflection, a deliberate choice to steer things toward a genderless media environment seems like a bad idea. There are a lot of people who like to identify by gender and I don't see any problem with that - the problem lies in attempting to enforce universal ideals about what that means, and expecting everyone to want to do that. So, yeah, definitely coming down on the side of "there are lots of stories that work well that way, but it's not an adequate standard for stories in general". We could use more stories written like that, but that's only because of the general dearth of them - unless I'm wrong and there's actually plenty I'm just not aware of.

[Rolepgeek]

Side thought: I really think stories should be written without genders, then have them assigned at the very end of the writing process, unless some sort of focus of the script relates to it. *shrugs*

Seems like a great way to make sure your characters are uniformly the same gender in all but name.

Like I said. If it's a focus of the story, go ahead with it. Otherwise, write them as people, not 'men' or 'women'. They'll have the character traits they have. Once the storyline and major details have been established, go back through and give them a gender, maybe make some of them outside of people's comfort zones, a trans, someone who doesn't identify as either, someone who's gay. Adjust lesser details as appropriate to fit. I'm not saying it's the only way, or that all stories work this way, I just think it's something people should consider and preferably go ahead with. It's definitely a step towards breaking down gender roles; assign genders by flips of a coin if you need to, and you'll end up with some interesting characters that you might never have thought of.

*more shrugging*

Just an idea, is all. It's how I prefer to write my stories, when I can focus enough to get beyond the setting.

[Leafsnail]

If you want to take people out of their comfort zones then you need to put in the effort to evaluate why they're uncomfortable with a certain thing and carefully address that in your writing.  Randomly tacking details onto your characters after you're done writing them will just ring hollow.  Like, why are you expecting people to have their beliefs challenged when you've made no attempt to understand or engage those beliefs, instead opting to ignore them altogether?

[Rolepgeek]

As I said. Engage such details once the basic plot of the story is written. If such is directly relevant to the primary focus of the story, then you would, of course, include it in your writing process at every step of the process.

But if it's a fantasy story about killing dragons? The main character being gay does not directly impact his ability to stab things. I did not/should not have implied that such would be the very end of the writing process. Simply that it should not be the first step, or the second, or third.

[Rolan7]

Heh, I love how Rogue Legacy handled sexuality.  In that it acknowledged it, but it had no effect on combat.  A lot like the encouraging stance Wizards of The Coast have taken for 5th edition.  (My RL gaming group is almost a year into a 3.5e campaign, and we don't like many aspects of 4th edition, but 5th is looking a lot better for other reasons too)

http://www.themarysue.com/sexuality-and-gender-diversity-dungeons-and-dragons-next/

MM: Any social change takes time. My personal sense is that I’ve always been much more leery about offending gay and transgender folks by fumbling the issue in an effort to include them. I’m not worried about offending bigots – quite the opposite, in fact. The value lies simply in acknowledgement, and realizing that it’s better to put something out there than remain quiet out of a misplaced bout of sensitivity

Basically they've *acknowledged* LGBT people by mentioning the option in character creation.  AFAIK there are no mechanics tied to it.  It simply recognizes that such people exist.  Which is meaningless, dangerous, and very decent of them.

Which brings me back to Rogue Legacy.  Characters are equally male or female, and are occasionally homosexual.  None of those traits effect anything (except, as I luckily discovered on my first success, the victory scene).  Every other trait has an effect, which gives impact to the fact that these traits don't.

Someone on Youtube made the silly argument that genderless indie games are promoting gender equality.  A gender-free game can be great, it can even be a welcome relief from the typical triple-A cheesecake, but they merely dilute the problem.  Rogue Legacy is one of the very few actively decent games in regards to gender and sexuality.

It's just one indie game though, with a tiny budget.  The real problem is that we, by which I mean young adult males, keep paying for games which treat us as hormonal homophobic teenagers.  It's insulting - not to women, to US - and it only continues because we allow it.

[DJ]

IMO token details about characters just for the sake of diversity are lame. Like how the hell is one's sexual orientation relevant to dragon-slaying, and why should it ever even be brought up? The only excuse I can see is the mandatory romantic sub-plot, and I think that writers really need to stop cramming that shit into everything. If I want romance I'll play a dating sim, not a dragon-slaying sim.

[Helgoland]

The thing is, you don't read a fantasy novel about a dragon slayer just to read that he slew (?) a dragon - then the book would only have around two sentences. You read such a book to be immersed in the setting: You want to get a feeling for life in the setting, for the environment (loads of fantasy books include maps for precisely that reason), challenges other than that soon-to-be-kebab dragon, and you especially want to get to know the character. And for getting to know the character, gender is pretty essential, if only because everybody has one. Sexual orientation... not so much. Except for romance subplots, I guess.

[Phmcw]

And for getting to know the character, gender is pretty essential, if only because everybody has one. Sexual orientation... not so much. Except for romance subplots, I guess.

I don't agree : it can add color to the character. The problem is : you want to identify to your character, and using a trait that is strongly linked to only about 5% of the population for your main character is unwise exept for indie title, which is why you won't see it in any AAA title. take the witcher game, make the witcher gay, rework the story and plot, and you'll have a great, colorfull game. I bet you'll lose 50% of sales, though.

BTW, that's the actual presure from the majority : a natural law, not a conspiracy.