Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Dutchling]

I think the test is more about the gender of the movie's character than about the actual content of the conversations women have.

[Neonivek]

I think the test is more about the gender of the movie's character than about the actual content of the conversations women have.

Actually no, so long as the person they are talking about is a man they are still failing the Bachdel test.

If two women talk to eachother about how much they love cleaning the dishes they pass.

it fails the test as an easy way to get across the point that the female characters only ever talk to men or about men, that's fine.

Which is true, but misleading.

[penguinofhonor]

A movie failing the Bechdel test means that there is literally always a male narrative presence. A male character is always on the viewer's mind. I think that's notable, even if it's less notable than the trend of this happening in the whole industry.

[Reelya]

An ideal movie though, one which deserves the highest rating of gender equality, should pass the Bechdel test (or also fail the reverse Bechdel).

I agree on passing the Bechdel Test in general, but of course there are alwsys going to be exceptions which are non-the-less excellent movies, e.g. 12 Angry Men or Shawshank Redemption are both great stories, and the gender-balance in those is integral to the storyline/setting. Sure you could cram 2 girls in there talking about the weather, but that would probably detract from the story, even though it now "passes the bechdel test", and grading to the bechdel test sounds like you'd merely cram some extras in there to fit the legal requirement.

The bechdel test makes more sense to apply once something has passed the "2 women" criteria. For movies with less than two women, you need to ask why that is? Historical drama, prison drama, war drama, based on a novel, etc, are legitimate reasons for a gender bias in the story.

I don't agree with demanding every film pass the Bechdel test, or any other arbitrary measure we make up. Requiring certain attributes in every story ever made is basically like requiring every color of the rainbow in every painting ever made: you've just reduced the number of possible paintings that can be painted, and do we really want to do that?

As for a perfect movie "failing the reverse bechdel test" wouldn't that just make it sexist the other way rather than gender-neutral?

[Neonivek]

There are exceptions of course.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Alien is still considered a very progressive movie with a strong female protagonist who is strong because she is strong (She doesn't suffer from "Strong Independent Woman" Syndrome... note that isn't my terminology).

It fails the Bechdel test.

While Charmed, a tv show, is probably the most dual sexist show in recent times and it more then passes most of the time.

There are a lot of exceptions Reelya.. these aren't anecdotal one in a million exceptions.

HECK there are "informative" movies in the black and white era about how women should be good housewives and they almost always pass the Bechdel test because it is always the one bad wife who is fixed by the good wife or secretary.

That is why you cannot use it to assess single movies but use it to highlight a trend.

As well just because a movie fails the Bechdel test doesn't mean it is "sexist" either. It just means it doesn't include 2 NAMED female characters who are talking TO EACHOTHER about something that isn't a man. Which as I always say isn't as easy as people think.

Though we could always apply the reverse Bechdel test to movies with female protagonists and see what percent it gets... Penelope for example fails... because all the male characters are talking about Penelope. There is one scene with to guys talking about something other then Penelope but the manager isn't named to my knowledge... and really their conversation is actually about how "Penelope inspired him".

As I don't hide... my main "issue" with giving credence to the Bechdel test is most movies the main character is the only concern. So I personally think a HUGE aspect of the Bechdel test is just "What gender is the hero?" with the only reason it passes the reverse is because only our main character can have conversations unrelated to the plot. Which wouldn't be a problem if people would outright acknowledge it that it will naturally skew the percentages... but the Bechdel test is so often toted as a standard that all movies should live up to.

Note: Strong Independent Woman Syndrome is a term not coined by me where a movie tries to make a "strong independent woman" and manages to make a terrible characters because they have this sort of rebellious attitude about it so to speak. Think those movies where a woman needs to show up men because she is "strong and independent and doesn't take guff from any man" versus... Alien.

[Reelya]

http://bechdeltest.com/

46% of 2014 movies pass the Bechdel test, with another 7% disputed. so it's right around 50% pass rate.

The site average out of 4500 movies is a 56% pass rate, not quite as dire as some say.

[Neonivek]

It is when you know some people believe that the rate should be something like 90%

[DJ]

Please keep government out of arts. Any mechanism for it to "improve" things will just be used to influence election results.

[Neonivek]

We haven't even accessed the damage videogames have done. Mostly because I think that is a impossible task.

[Helgoland]

Please keep government out of arts. Any mechanism for it to "improve" things will just be used to turn everything to shit.

FTFY. Not true all of the time, but to a surprising extent - wonder why Germany doesn't have a big film industry, while in the twenties we were as big as Hollywood? A popular theory is that public funding of movies has taken away the incentive to make popular movies.
Also Hitler, but that's practically a given.

[Reelya]

The USA has 4 times the population of Germany, so there was a much bigger market to grow into, plus there are a number of other countries they can export to, with populations numbering more than Germany, so they can exceed German film revenues solely on exports. The large number of English speakers is the base that lets them fund and create high-budget movies, then, those are likely to be dubbed or subbed for foreign release.

France has a more robust film industry than Germany, so any public-funding-related theory needs to take that into account. Why is the French cinema industry bigger than Germany when there are less French speakers than Germans?

[palsch]

France has a more robust film industry than Germany, so any public-funding-related theory needs to take that into account. Why is the French cinema industry bigger than Germany when there are less French speakers than Germans?

Just spit balling here;

French nationalism and linguistic... imperialism? Dunno the best term for it. France has retained a far greater nationalistic streak especially where their language is concerned, leading to a greater demand (if not market) for original French language films where Germany may be more accepting of dubbed/subbed imports.

French commitment to artistic production being higher. The French national identity includes a strong commitment to the arts, and letting that slip would be hard for any government, meaning such programs are going to be a greater priority. The German artistic commitment seems closer to the British; keep the museums and galleries open and the industry profitable and you have done your job.

France's view of 'acceptable' art for public funding may already be wider than most other nations, both within the government and public at large. A lot of claims that things go to shit come either from the government playing too safe with what they are willing to fund (so offering little of recognised artistic merit) or going further than the public are willing to accept (so offering things that people aren't interested in or flat out don't recognise as art any more). That non-shit envelope may be wider for France than the more (artistically) conservative Germany or other nations with a less artistically inclined public - or at least a public less inclined towards what is currently being viewed as artistic by the elite.

[scriver]

Please keep government out of arts. Any mechanism for it to "improve" things will just be used to influence election results.

Nobody here is really advocating for government intervention, and if you're referring to the Sweden story, then once again those are private organisations taking the initiative.

Also Hitler, but that's practically a given.

Damn you, Helgoland. I wanted to make that comment 

[Neonivek]

Nobody here is really advocating for government intervention, and if you're referring to the Sweden story, then once again those are private organisations taking the initiative.

Yeah for the most part it is more that people are against the idea that the government "couldn't" take action, or that it was fallacious that it would be wrong for them not to.

While others are either against government intervention on art in general, or believe it is wrong for them to attempt it.

With implied limitations on both.

[Helgoland]

Please keep government out of arts. Any mechanism for it to "improve" things will just be used to influence election results.

Nobody here is really advocating for government intervention, and if you're referring to the Sweden story, then once again those are private organisations taking the initiative.

Also Hitler, but that's practically a given.

Damn you, Helgoland. I wanted to make that comment 

I should make that my sigtext, because it fits nearly any post.