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[Mindmaker]

The only thing I've been wondering is "What the hell happened to female Varls?". They have a serious case of "All dwarfs are male"-syndrome.

The reason I even mention the "doesn't treat women well" is because one of the solutions listed on this thread is that if a game is a not a documentary that it should rewrite its setting to be very female inclusive (AKA the Dungeons and Dragons Approach)

That's absurd, so you can't use certain settings anymore because they are "historically sexist"?

[Graknorke]

-snip-

The reason people ask is because it's not what they're used to. They're not offended or hurt, it's just unusual.

[Rolepgeek]

-snip-

The reason people ask is because it's not what they're used to. They're not offended or hurt, it's just unusual.

I'm pretty sure most people aren't used to a society in which women are treated as little better than property, but if a game does that, it isn't questioned. Which gives something of an implication that that's okay, but the inverse isn't. And really, neither is okay(in real life). That's my issue with it.

[Mindmaker]

You're going to need some specific examples here.

[Neonivek]

I forgot Mindmaker, but I think it might be that there really are no female Varls or that they are extremely protected or something... The Varls seem to indicate that they are essentially a dying race anyhow.

Why do you say it like that? "very female inclusive" instead of just saying not sexist

Because it can easily be a setting that isn't sexist but just doesn't really include women in the action.

you keep saying documentary like it's a buzzword, I don't know if someone else did first but please stop it's getting annoying

Yes, two people when trying to form an argument about why "GTA shouldn't have prostitutes" say "well it isn't a documentary". It is either that or "ultra-realistic".

But on a different aspect of that; why is it bad, at all, for a game to have an equal-gender society in it? Hell, what's wrong with it having a female-dominated one?

Nothing, and while the "all female" one tends to go into "stupid" territory that is more a product of bad writing (Chances they will be genocidal hypocrites? 99%).

My beef is mostly with this idea that settings that are not going for ultra-realism or documentary style, should rewrite their narratives to include them and that not doing so is bad. That they should either pick between documentary or pure fantasy.

When Banner Saga does the exact opposite of that (Women do have less presence, they are forced into roles, and they are looked down upon... and no woman in the game really attempts to increase their lot... all based off of a fantasy Nordic society) and it still works even within this idea.

While Dungeons and Dragon's approach is mostly that sexism is more of a character trait. Which has lead to a VERY noticeable trend where if a game has outright sexism on display most of the time it will be from a man-mater. Which is usually their poor attempt to make social commentary, but it falls flat because sexism doesn't strongly exist as far as the narrative is concerned and thus these people just seem like jerks who hate guys because they are jerks.

I'm pretty sure most people aren't used to a society in which women are treated as little better than property, but if a game does that, it isn't questioned. Which gives something of an implication that that's okay, but the inverse isn't. And really, neither is okay(in real life). That's my issue with it.

I RARELY see games where women are treated as property to admit. Yet honestly, I don't see anything wrong with a game where that is true.

Heck "The Void" does that.

The reason why "It is ok" in a setting isn't because "it is right" but because settings do not have to pick and chose between right and wrong. Often it is the ambiguity of the setting that is more attractive.

[Bauglir]

Yeah, no. Sexism in games is a legitimate problem, but it doesn't mean that every game should have fighting that problem as a mandatory point in the design document. Is that an actual position that's been advanced? I'm sorry, I've been kind of skimming since the last time I posted in here, and I don't want to make another blunder like I did the last time I claimed nobody said something.

The thing is that saying "Games should have more egalitarian societies" is a legitimate claim, since you're just pointing out a gap that ought to be filled. And people say that a lot, and rightly so. But a lot of people seem to react as though they're claiming all games ought to be pigeonholed into that space. So my gut reaction is that this is what's happening here - somebody makes a sensible statement, and other gamers get defensive and project an imaginary, but similar-sounding, claim onto it. Am I wrong to think that's what's going on with Neonivek's posts?

Because I'm getting tired of having to explain what I don't believe.

[Neonivek]

In what way is "Sexism in games" a legitimate problem?

No I don't mean sexism infused into the game. I mean sexism, narrative or setting based sexism, in games.

Very few games actually try to present sexist societies, even when they outright can justify it. Sure men and women often have their roles in the society, but they present absolutely no barriers for either of them to pursue a different passion.

Add in that a line like "But she is only a woman" would only be met by groans to a modern audience.

It cannot be a legitimate problem because it is almost fantastically rare.

[Bauglir]

EDIT: Okay, your edits have clarified, so I'll ready a reply

[Neonivek]

Please clarify, there's like 3 or 4 different ways to interpret that question and I'm pretty sure that any I answer will lead to another being what you claim to have meant all along. Do we want to keep using GTA as an example?

Well you are the one to use "Sexist society".

How many games present a world where you are taught that women are inferior? How many settings are women unable to stand on their two feet?

I mean you have "The Void", You have Banner Saga...

How many games have outright sexists that aren't women? and of those how many of them are meant to be wrong? and I don't mean they say things that you can interpret as demeaning, but I mean full on "Your a woman, you clearly cannot do this".

---

The difference to me is that as far as setting is concerned GTA versus The Banner Saga is that while they both present similar types of sexism (SORT OF... GTA only presents sexism in the form of "Women can be prostitutes and we will be around them a lot") is that Banner Saga uses women.

You do not need to make egalitarian societies to use women.

Or rather I don't consider GTA to be at fault for its setting. It is what it does with the setting.

[Bauglir]

Okay, so your argument is that you need the game to explicitly say women are inferior for it to be in any way sexist? Like, you need a line where a character complains that somebody's "just a woman" and therefore unfit for whatever, and the game endorses that? Because that's generally horseshit. All you need is a game where all the soldiers are men and the only women you see are housewives, or whatever. The narrative doesn't have to go out of the way to bludgeon "Women are inferior" or whatever message into your head, the developers just have to have not thought to put women anywhere but in subservient roles. Dragon Age: Origins strikes me as a pretty good example of a game whose setting does this, even if they avoid the problem with the actual characters in your party, but it's been ages since I've played it so I could be misremembering.

In fact, I haven't played a non-Skyrim, non-Witcher RPG in years and years (and both of those are actually pretty good about this, very surprisingly in the latter case), so I'm actually a shit when it comes to examples, and we both know that each of us will only dismiss each other's examples as anecdotal evidence anyway. I seem to recall seeing some kind of relevant study being mentioned earlier in the thread, but I don't know if it's helpful here. So I'll admit, maybe I'm wrong about the actual state of affairs.

[Neonivek]

Your just defaulting. "Of course this is a sexist society, I mean the only woman we see is a housewife. Only sexist societies have housewives. Obviously she can only be that"

Yes they must explicitly say it. They must explicitly show it.

Since I am talking about "as far as the setting is concerned". This isn't about the game's sexist but its setting.

For example in Neverwinter 2 there is a woman who wants to be a warrior... you give her some cash and... she becomes one.

Sure, the standard soldier is male, but it doesn't give a good aura of sexism when a woman can just decide to change vocations to whatever the heck she wants and be successful without anyone even batting an eye.

[Bauglir]

Your just defaulting. "Of course this is a sexist society, I mean the only woman we see is a housewife. Only sexist societies have housewives."

No? A setting that has only housewives and no other women is probably a sexist one, though.

EDIT: In response to your edit, then we're either talking about different things or you hate verisimilitude for some reason. Either way, it's not going to be a productive conversation.

[DeKaFu]

On the topic of settings, I remember playing the interactive-novel-game "Choice of Broadsides" back when it was new, and being highly amused that a single choice early in the game (your own gender) had the effect of gender-flipping the entire setting.

So suddenly it took place in a world where the ships and navy are run and staffed entirely by women, and men are considered too delicate to be exposed to such hardships, and instead stay home to be courted. Since the whole game is text-based, it was just a matter of swapping all the gender pronouns and such.

Not saying it's a particularly great way of doing things (obviously the setting was still a historically sexist one) or something other games should do, but I thoroughly enjoyed it at the time, if only for the novelty.

[Neonivek]

A setting that has only housewives and no other women is probably a sexist one, though.

Probably? Sure.

Not saying it's a particularly great way of doing things (obviously the setting was still a historically sexist one) or something other games should do, but I thoroughly enjoyed it at the time, if only for the novelty.

I pondered having an option in my adventure game that I will never finish... of having a gender swap button that will gender swap every character in the game, but keep the dialog mostly the same (with alterations based on who they are talking to) just as an experiment.

I still want to try that at some point.

Though... none of my settings are ones with all that prominent sexist... and the one that is, it is basically kept at arms length. And as I said my characters tend to be very "gender unimportant" as far as the story is concerned.

So it means less if "I" do it.

[Mindmaker]

How many games present a world where you are taught that women are inferior? How many settings are women unable to stand on their two feet?

I mean you have "The Void", You have Banner Saga...

I still don't see how The Banner Saga is supposed to be an example for that.