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[Sheb]

Nothing wrong with it, it's just that it's really misleading (I'd even say dishonest) to claim gender parity when 95% of games let you play as a man, but only 50% let you play as a woman.

No one claims that games are a woman less wasteland, and everyone here acknowledged that the game industry made progress, but we're still far from gender parity.

[Rolepgeek]

Oh, alright, sorry then. Kinda like Dragon Age, then. (god they're so similar aren't they)

Still, in all the trailers I vaguely remember seeing and such, it was a male Shepard.

[Neonivek]

I think the ultimate solution is to not acknowledge the Damsel in Distress trope at all. Drawing attention to the subversion of that trope just makes it seem like the female protagonist is a novelty.

I don't know, would you say that the problem is that the trope exists at all, or that it's only that kind of representation that women tend to get in games? Because I would say the latter, and as far as I've picked up that's what other people have a problem with as well.

Right here Sheb it has been stated. I am not making it up.

[Rolepgeek]

The problem is inherent in the trope, though; the trope itself is gendered. It's called Damsel in Distress, for [religious term]'s sake. It's not called Civilian in Distress or My Spouse Has Been Kidnapped. There's an automatic assumption that it will be female. Just like there's an automatic assumption the rescuer will be male. That is the problem. The trope existing is not; the manner in which it exists, is.

[Reelya]

That's circular reasoning though. "damsel in distress" is a label applied to the trope only when the target to save is female.

There's no reason a male can't be rescued, or that a female can't be the rescuer. If you have any number of games with a female protagonist, soon enough they're going to have to trot out all the common scenarios, including rescue missions. And female protagonists need plot motivations too, just like male characters. Saving a person is just a convenient plot device to explain why someone would even risk their life in this deathtrap dungeon or whatever.

They're just aren't enough female-only protagonist games to see it that often, rather than "females don't get to do rescues".

Plenty of games have you saving male characters from bad things, look at Thief: The Dark Project where you're goal is to rescue your pal from prison in the 2nd (or maybe 3rd) mission. We just don't call that "damsel in distress" because he's a man, not because he doesn't fit the trope.

[Rolepgeek]

Alright, but he also wasn't kidnapped. Why is there a different trope specifically for females anyway? What's the equivalent trope for males, then? Prince in Distress?

[Neonivek]

The problem is inherent in the trope, though; the trope itself is gendered. It's called Damsel in Distress, for [religious term]'s sake. It's not called Civilian in Distress or My Spouse Has Been Kidnapped. There's an automatic assumption that it will be female. Just like there's an automatic assumption the rescuer will be male. That is the problem. The trope existing is not; the manner in which it exists, is.

Yet it has slowly been dis-engendered over time. There is no automatic expectation that the kidnaped will be female and the savior will be male. At least in my mind.

If it is a Metal Gear game, chances are it will be male (Dang it Otacon!)

 

We just don't call that "damsel in distress" because he's a man

We do, we do call him the Damsel. The difference is that "Someone who gets kidnapped" isn't automatically a damsel, they have to be kind of kidnapping prone or kidnapped from the getgo.

[Sheb]

Oh, well, sorry Neonivek, someone indeed claimed that.

[Neonivek]

Oh, well, sorry Neonivek, someone indeed claimed that.

No problem.

As for my view on the Damsel, it is just how I always saw it. The "Damsel" role is not a gendered role to me and believe the trope has evolved from antiquity, males and females both take that roll quite often.

Yet I cannot argue that the world doesn't see it as gendered.

[Reelya]

Alright, but he also wasn't kidnapped.

why are you suddenly being picky about why he got in distress, he wasn't "kidnapped": are you now saying only kidnapped damsels count as "real" damsels, and if a female damsel is hanging over a cliff and a man saves her she's not a "real damsel in distress" unless a villain put her there?

Anyway, he was grabbed and stuck in the prison by the authorities, which sound a lot like "kidnapped" anyway. Why are you suddenly changing the goal posts so much for being "in distress". If the police chucked a female character into the prison and a male character rescued her, would SHE count as a proper "kidnapped" "damsel in distress"? you're just making up bullshit qualifiers now and not applying them the same way, based on gender.

Why is there a different trope specifically for females anyway? What's the equivalent trope for males, then? Prince in Distress?

This is just retarded. The trope is played out no different. You're just labeling it "damsel in distress" on your own - a term that the game producers themselves do not usually use. We can just say "person in distress" as the meta-trope that covers both, then your false dichotomy falls apart.

[Neonivek]

I just use Damsel. No one uses that word for its original meaning anyhow.

The closest is Dame which is kind of like and alternate version of Lady.

[Reelya]

We do, we do call him the Damsel. The difference is that "Someone who gets kidnapped" isn't automatically a damsel, they have to be kind of kidnapping prone or kidnapped from the getgo.

The character in Thief, we never hear about or see him before being captured, nor does he do anything in the plot. His entire existence in the game is summed up being in distress and rescued by the protagonist.

So, he's clearly filling a "damsel" role in the game: he has no other existence or point.

[Neonivek]

We do, we do call him the Damsel. The difference is that "Someone who gets kidnapped" isn't automatically a damsel, they have to be kind of kidnapping prone or kidnapped from the getgo.

The character in Thief, we never hear about or see him before being captured, nor does he do anything in the plot. His entire existence in the game is summed up being in distress and rescued by the protagonist.

Ohh yeah he is definitely the damsel.

[Vector]

Oh, alright, sorry then. Kinda like Dragon Age, then. (god they're so similar aren't they)

Still, in all the trailers I vaguely remember seeing and such, it was a male Shepard.

Yeah, the thing that really annoys me right now is cutscenes where you're clearly male but then they "let you have a female character." Not as bad in Mass Effect, where it's just box art/game launch cutscenes, but I started playing Kingdoms of Amalur recently and you start off with the player model being clearly a dude with male voice acting, male body, etc., then character customization, and suddenly the character model's female.

[Rolepgeek]

Alright, but he also wasn't kidnapped.

why are you suddenly being picky about why he got in distress, he wasn't "kidnapped": are you now saying only kidnapped damsels count as "real" damsels, and if a female damsel is hanging over a cliff and a man saves her she's not a "real damsel in distress" unless a villain put her there?

Anyway, he was grabbed and stuck in the prison by the authorities, which sound a lot like "kidnapped" anyway. Why are you suddenly changing the goal posts so much for being "in distress". If the police chucked a female character into the prison and a male character rescued her, would SHE count as a proper "kidnapped" "damsel in distress"? you're just making up bullshit qualifiers now and not applying them the same way, based on gender.

Alright, let me explain that a bit better. He was in prison. He was not in a dungeon, though they are similar. It's a thief game, yes? So he was put in jail for committing a crime, yes? Therefore, he deserved to get put in jail, yes? And you are breaking him out? That's a different trope, I'm fairly sure. The Damsel in Distress trope is about someone being unfairly placed into a position of distress, as far as I know. If a female thief got placed into prison and someone helped break her out, I would not see it as Damsel in Distress, I would see it as Jailbreak. I don't know if that's an actual term for a trope, though.

Why is there a different trope specifically for females anyway? What's the equivalent trope for males, then? Prince in Distress?

This is just retarded. The trope is played out no different. You're just labeling it "damsel in distress" on your own - a term that the game producers themselves do not usually use. We can just say "person in distress" as the meta-trope that covers both, then your false dichotomy falls apart.

It's the tvtropes label for the term and it comes to mind easily. I'm trying to point out that we should be using Person in Distress, not Damsel in Distress. Damsel refers to a female, which is why I believe the trope has some issues that need to be resolved. Just because the game producers don't call it that doesn't mean it's not true. They also don't call making mostly male main characters 'sexism', they more likely call it 'marketing'.

Ninjaedit: I've never played Thief, but if his entire role is to be rescued than yeah he's a part of that trope, my apologies. But alright, that's one game. I'm assuming from what you guys were talking about that the guy nevers does anything more in the game besides being rescued, which is part of what makes him a 'damsel'. But do you honestly believe there's an equal number of female and male 'damsels' in gaming? Or anywhere near a similar ratio? I mean, yeah, there's plenty of them, but there's a crapton of games, anyway. You can search for hours, and if you include semi-obscure games where it's easier to find non-sexist examples, you're going to have to include the shitty games about as popular with people that have plenty of equally sexist examples. You can't pick and choose and then say it's equal. To clarify, though, I'm not accusing you of that, I'm trying to warn you off of doing it