Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Reelya]

Her central argument is that the value we apply to the traits themselves need to be thrown away. But to me, that's like throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Breaking the association between genders and the traits should be enough in my book, rather than trying to redefine value itself. It's like saying the person who came last in a race should get equal praise as the person who came first. Sure, there no better or worse as people, but people pay to see someone doing well, not badly.

That's clear where she says strength being better than weakness is just cultural relativism, as is "in control" vs "out of control" (her wording). She's arguing that competence and incompetence are equally valuable.

[Rolepgeek]

Does she actually say weakness is just as good as strength? I have a feeling you're interpreting this the way you want to interpret it, rather than the way she means.

Also, it's kindof a dick thing to think and/or related to social darwinism to say that if someone's not good at stuff they suck as a person, which is what you're coming across as.

[Fniff]

You know, this is totally unrelated to the current line of discussion, but on the topic of feminism in games... I've noticed that survival horror games seem to possess a lot more female protagonists then regular games. If this true (And I'm not sure if it is), why does it happen? And is it a good thing or a bad thing for feminism?

[Mindmaker]

I'm not much of a horror game player (I like them, but I'm easily scared), but most of the recent ones I can think of had male ones.

[Fniff]

Daylight and Amnesia: Justine are recent ones with female protagonists, but I think the bulk of the ones I'm thinking of are from the 90s and early 2000s.

[nenjin]

I don't see a context in which weakness is a virtue and a state to be maintained, let alone made the basis of stories and fiction.

If I could play devil's advocate, I'd like to say this is essentially what IS expected of the 'damsel in distress' archetype, and what many people find ridiculous [myself included, Sheik was the best thing to happen to Zelda's character] about the notion.

I agree with you. To movie execs and writers, yeah, damsel in distress needs to stay in distress otherwise their hero loses their reason for being. (Like if she suddenly started saving herself, why, the guy would just up and quit the story and go have a beer while she gets herself out of trouble!)

Personally, I'm ok with "ERMAHGERD SOMETHING HAPPENED TO MY WIFE/DAUGHTER/SISTER" as a starting point. But there's no reason you can't have two plots, one about a guy's effort to save someone they love, running concurrently with the one they love also trying to save themselves. Compare and contrast: Alan Wake vs. Taken 2. In Alan Wake, your wife is mysteriously and violently taken away, and she's just gone, and you spend the rest of the story trying to get to her. In Taken 2, not only is the main character kidnapped, but his daughter is as well. She gets herself out of trouble (with his help) and then proceeds to get himself out of trouble.

[Vector]

But, she can't even list a single example from the entire body of human literature of how this idea could be made to work, she just "expects" people to "fix it" based on her abstract charts.

I think a good example is probably Dream of the Red Chamber. Most of the classical Chinese novels I've read don't really have viewpoint characters, main characters, "strong" characters, etc. There's just people. And it works.

If this true (And I'm not sure if it is), why does it happen? And is it a good thing or a bad thing for feminism?

I think it's true, and I'm not really into it because it's usually related to making the player feel weaker and/or more vulnerable.

[scrdest]

Yes, but novels are novels, you have a whole sub-genre of western novels about a Bunch of Random People Interacting (novel of manners and the like). But here, we're specifically talking about video games, and if you want to recreate this kind of story in a video game, you would probably end with either a visual novel or a The Sims clone.

[Rolepgeek]

On the other hand, puzzle platformers are good for abstract things where the protagonist doesn't need to be 'strong' in any of the typical ways. Clever, yes, strong, no.

[Vector]

Hey man, he asked about the entire body of human literature, not video games. I'm not saying it's easy, just that it's not impossible.

[Fniff]

If this true (And I'm not sure if it is), why does it happen? And is it a good thing or a bad thing for feminism?

I think it's true, and I'm not really into it because it's usually related to making the player feel weaker and/or more vulnerable.

Well, what sort of context do you think a female survival horror protagonist would be acceptable?

[Rolepgeek]

It isn't that it's unacceptable, it's just a shitty reason to have it be a girl, is all.

[Vector]

Well, what sort of context do you think a female survival horror protagonist would be acceptable?

Probably one where it's not clearly a sort of pornography of weakness. I'm thinking Rule of Rose right now in particular, or the new Tomb Raider game with its trauma conga.

The main thing for me right now is actually the voice acting. I am way more comfortable playing Shepherd in Mass Effect than I am playing most female characters, because when she gets hurt she sounds like she's getting hurt, not like she's about to have a mind-blowing orgasm. Make a female character who honestly sounds terrified--not the standard screaming horror blond, but more like the voice direction from Amnesia--and we're good.

[Reelya]

You know, this is totally unrelated to the current line of discussion, but on the topic of feminism in games... I've noticed that survival horror games seem to possess a lot more female protagonists then regular games. If this true (And I'm not sure if it is), why does it happen? And is it a good thing or a bad thing for feminism?

It could be related to horror movie tropes, specifically the "final girl" trope:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final_girl

[Neonivek]

Neonivek, what are you defining "damsel qualities" as in this case? I'm not really sure what that would include and is positive.

The Princess traits basically. Grace and Wisdom for example.

Anita goes back and forth between Damsel the "state of being" and Damsel the "Princess".

myself included, Sheik was the best thing to happen to Zelda's character

To me the best thing to happen to Zelda's character wasn't Sheik (Sheik was just another stereotypical role) but rather Zelda going from being the "just another person to save" into being the true holder of the Triforce of Wisdom. Where she takes an active role in the events of the series either behind the scenes as a manipulator or directly. It is coincidentally the very same game that did it.

---

Also you guys gotta stop harping on "weakness" as a positive or negative as it pertains to a character.

what sort of context do you think a female survival horror protagonist would be acceptable?

I'll put it to you this way. Jill and the Female protagonist from Alone in the Dark are both perfectly acceptable.

Heck Alone in the Dark's female protagonist is the very first female character in videogames made primarily with the female audience in mind AND is somewhat middle aged.

While Jill basically goes through the same path Chris does, somewhat altered, and sure she gets saved "by a man" but it is never done in a "You are clearly a woman" aspect (that and Chris does as well). There is no aspect of Jill that I can see that even approaches inappropriate except MAYBE her alternate costumes (But I don't remember her having a Bikini costume)

Probably one where it's not clearly a sort of pornography of weakness. I'm thinking Rule of Rose right now in particular, or the new Tomb Raider game with its trauma conga

That doesn't matter either. Weakness can be very engaging especially with horror, which is often about making the protagonists feel completely trapped.

My example of a weak female character being intriguing? Adrian from Phantasmagoria. The fact that she is clearly weak is used to heighten the sense of horror, yet those weaknesses only accentuates her wit, intelligence, and sheer willpower when she needs to find alternate solutions to a puzzle other then punching it down. As well her personal fault is her refusal to leave the house out of love (though that can also be seen as a virtue) even when her SO becomes increasingly abusive.

Weakness, explored weakness, is not a problem... even if it is for "typically woman" things. The issue is if it is undue.

Adrian's weakness comes from her being an unathletic writer and being in a loving relationship and unable to let go of it.

--

Now the reason why horror games have more female protagonists? In Fatal Frame they say the reason they chose a female protagonist is because a male protagonist is expected to, when trapped, to start tearing things up, while a female protagonist doesn't have such expectation.

Silent Hill's use of mostly male protagonists has a lot to do with how it the series is about the character's own personal hell. While Silent Hill 3 used a female protagonist as a flip of Silent Hill 1.