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[Bauglir]

Then flabbergasted I am, because that article is actually an amazingly apt description of how to contribute to the discussion. Remember, nobody but Graknorke and you are saying that men have nothing to contribute, only that their contributions aren't made from a position of authority.

[Neonivek]

http://www.techrepublic.com/article/assign-responsibility-and-authority

That isn't how business works either Bauglir.

It is how a dictatorship functions... but not a business.

[palsch]

This post suddenly seems very relevant.

[Neonivek]

This post suddenly seems very relevant.

Ad Hominem. Though more of an "Appeal to Emotion".

[Putnam]

It certainly isn't ad hominem to say that your arguments have issues and appeal to emotion is a perfectly valid argument technique.

[Bauglir]

http://www.techrepublic.com/article/assign-responsibility-and-authority

That isn't how business works either Bauglir.

It is how a dictatorship functions... but not a business.

I'm really confused. I'm saying that men aren't going to be in a position of authority in discussions about shit women have to deal with. I'm saying there's a relevant analogy to businesses because employees aren't in positions of authority to their bosses, by definition. Nevertheless, they have valuable contributions to make. You tell me that's not how businesses work, and link to articles that explain why that's exactly how businesses work?

I'm pretty sure that's what Vector was also getting at, too, but maybe I've misunderstood? I dunno.

[palsch]

Ad Hominem. Though more of an "Appeal to Emotion".

OK. You win. I'm literally crying with laughter here.




Anyway, in a futile attempt to revert to the last halfway productive conversation, a piece about 'strong' female characters in games. Some fun parts;

It seems that when you want to make a woman into a hero, you hurt her first. When you want to make a man into a hero, you hurt... also a woman first.

I'm far from the first person to criticize the focus on "strong" when it comes to female protagonists. As Sophia McDougall puts it in this New Statesman piece, "Sherlock Holmes gets to be brilliant, solitary, abrasive, Bohemian, whimsical, brave, sad, manipulative, neurotic, vain, untidy, fastidious, artistic, courteous, rude, a polymath genius. Female characters get to be Strong." Further, we seem to have problematic ideas of how women become Strong -- men break them, we assume.

Well-intentioned men sometimes chastise one another about sexism: "She could be your wife. She could be your daughter. Think about if someone did this to your girlfriend or your mom." How about just "she's a human being"? It's all part of a bigger problem, in that media, especially geek media, still too often only understands women in terms of their relationship to men. The question is never who is she, but what did they do to her.

There is still little exploration of how heroic qualities -- not necessarily "strength", but relatability, motivation, complexity -- in women can exist independently. There are still few roles for them other than catalyst for male revelation or victim defined by male abuse.

Also some interesting thoughts in parents in games there, notably how we've seen an uptick in 'dad games' but a lack of mothers.

[Vector]

I'm pretty sure that's what Vector was also getting at, too, but maybe I've misunderstood? I dunno.

Nope, you're good.

[Graknorke]

Then flabbergasted I am, because that article is actually an amazingly apt description of how to contribute to the discussion. Remember, nobody but Graknorke and you are saying that men have nothing to contribute, only that their contributions aren't made from a position of authority.

This isn't about experience determining who is right.  It's about who has the necessary information to even understand feminist subject matter.  That information is imposed on women more than men.

And other statements to the same effect. It's not about authority.

[Neonivek]

Look at all the articles and what they are saying... and that is that the Employees matter, that their opinions matter, that you must make them feel like they matter. A good boss isn't a dictator.

Business doesn't work the way you think it does unless you are working as a wage slave... but that is it, that is slavery.

Are Men employees or are they slaves? Certainly slaves with the ability to walk away... but which are they? Are they working for a non-profit organization or for Walmart?

Anyhow I am out fully now.

[Rolepgeek]

For the record, I predict his last statement to be false.

Also for the record, I predict that walking out when people are showing you that you're wrong will be considered a 'dick move'.

[penguinofhonor]

I think Neonivek first left this thread for good about 110 pages ago.

[sal880612m]

I think bringing that up again and again is going to make it harder for him to stay away.

[penguinofhonor]

And the harder it is for him to stay away, the funnier it gets to talk about it. Everyone wins!

[Gatleos]

* Gatleos walks into the thread

Jesus what happened in here? Has anybody had a productive conversation in the last 10 or so pages, or have you all been misinterpreting each other's stances and talking past each other? Because it looks like the latter.