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[MaximumZero]

Wouldn't it be more effective and faster to focus on bringing about a completely level playing field for everyone, not just focus on specific groups? It frustrates me to no end that we, as a people, can't manage to just not be jerks to each other. The whole damn system needs to be burned down and rebuilt from the foundation up.

You would think so, but first everyone has to be on a level playing field, period. Which it isn't right now. Focusing on men's issues takes the focus away from women's issues, which is where, in terms of gender oppression, it should be focused on.

Indeed, but it's much more complicated than that. It's not just gender that's the problem. It's inequity in all sectors of life. We need to focus on gender and race and poverty and education and health and the list goes on. We need to level the playing field across the board, and then turn the game from competitive to cooperative to advance. The problem is that change is hard for some people, and society isn't changing fast enough to accommodate the speed of changes that are going on in other areas of advancement, like technology and medicine. I just wish I knew a way to fix the problem, other than just not being a jerk to people myself.

[Neonivek]

Anyhow NOW I am out.

Conversations should go better without me.

Starting not my problem time (and sticking with it) NOW!

[Rolepgeek]

You realize, of course, that by definition, equal rights for one side means equal rights for the other?

Men aren't oppressed. Women are. No matter how much you kick and scream about men's problems, the fact remains. Equality for everyone is a noble goal. I agree with it. For the moment, women's problems are more important.

As for the retail reference, no, you haven't worked in retail. You haven't been a woman. Some people have experienced life as a woman. Some people still want to, because they know that's who they are as a person. But can you honestly say you've ever experienced the level of sexism women do, personally? I highly doubt it, unless you found some sort of secret amazon society.

[Bauglir]

That isn't exactly the same. If after the story the person said "well I worked in retail and I never yelled at anyone, odd" and the first person went "well I am right and all retail is this way" then it would match what I am referencing.

As well... I have had those exchanges before anyhow and they weren't being a jerk. They were informing me that I was being a big baby about work.

So, in your version, the listener's response is to offer an irrelevant opinion about something the speaker never mentioned (the speaker never yelled at anybody, either), as a way of dismissing the speaker's feelings, which were the only topic of the conversation until the listener decided to bring up objections. And wanting to talk about having a bad day is being a big baby about work?

This is exactly the not-being-a-decent-person I'm talking about.

[sal880612m]

We do not have the Triage quite yet. We can save both patients right now.
As well these patients are not separate patients they are Siamese Twins.

Female issues are at least an order of magnitude greater than men's. (I hope people understand what I am saying here.)
Point is even if someone accepts the premises that female issues aren't already due for Triage they are much closer so it is completely reasonable to shelf most if not all of male issues until they are both of about the same severity. At which point viewing and working on both issues is to me the fair thing to do. Until that balance is achieved any focus on male issues should be limited to the sort of stuff I mentioned previously.

Took too long yet again.

Wouldn't it be more effective and faster to focus on bringing about a completely level playing field for everyone, not just focus on specific groups? It frustrates me to no end that we, as a people, can't manage to just not be jerks to each other. The whole damn system needs to be burned down and rebuilt from the foundation up.

I'll buy the matches! (JOKE)

[Neonivek]

Fair enough Sal, it differs in how I view the issue but it is equally valid.

[Hubris Incalculable]

Wouldn't it be more effective and faster to focus on bringing about a completely level playing field for everyone, not just focus on specific groups? It frustrates me to no end that we, as a people, can't manage to just not be jerks to each other. The whole damn system needs to be burned down and rebuilt from the foundation up.

I'll buy the matches! (JOKE)

(SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN A JOKE)
(SERIOUS)
(DO IT)

[Vector]

That isn't exactly the same. If after the story the person said "well I worked in retail and I never yelled at anyone, odd" and the first person went "well I am right and all retail is this way" then it would match what I am referencing.

As well... I have had those exchanges before anyhow and they weren't being a jerk. They were informing me that I was being a big baby about work.

So, in your version, the listener's response is to offer an irrelevant opinion about something the speaker never mentioned (the speaker never yelled at anybody, either), as a way of dismissing the speaker's feelings, which were the only topic of the conversation until the listener decided to bring up objections. And wanting to talk about having a bad day is being a big baby about work?

This is exactly the not-being-a-decent-person I'm talking about.

Thank you. This is exactly it.

[Rolepgeek]

It wn't work guys. Neonivek has decided that because he started to lose the argument and it shifted back to focusing on women, it isn't his problem anymore, and therefore he doesn't have to care. S he's not listening.

Because, you know, saying 'it's not my problem' is a good way to show you're not a shitty human being.

[Graknorke]

I'm starting to agree with Neonivek really.
Men can't contribute anything to Feminism, so should stay out of it.

[Vector]

The appropriate contribution to a discussion on sexism is to listen and to ask how you can help, and to defend women who are being trampled on without speaking over them.

But yes, if you don't want to listen to women and ask how you can be helpful, please give up and go home.

[Mictlantecuhtli]

This topic is very interesting, to say the least.

[Graknorke]

The appropriate contribution to a discussion on sexism is to listen and to ask how you can help, and to defend women who are being trampled on without speaking over them.

But yes, if you don't want to listen to women and ask how you can be helpful, please give up and go home.

Following instructions despite being utterly incapable of understanding the reasoning behind it or contributing in any way other than doing what you're told? Sounds like one of those things that is Generally Not A Good Idea.

[Vector]

Following instructions despite being utterly incapable of understanding the reasoning behind it or contributing in any way other than doing what you're told? Sounds like one of those things that is Generally Not A Good Idea.

Then in that case, you're right. Just listen.

And if you've never been in a position where your contribution was to contribute by following someone else's orders, then... wow. I honestly don't even don't know what to say. You've never had a job?

[Neonivek]

http://employment.findlaw.com/employment-discrimination/employees-rights-101.html

http://www.forbes.com/sites/glennllopis/2012/03/19/6-reasons-employees-must-speak-up-to-thrive-at-work/