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[Frumple]

@ Neo: Pretty sure vec addressed that last bit when she noted the incredible preponderance of occurrences when discussions about women's issues -- such as, y'know, this thread was started about -- are wrenched into a discussion of men's issues as well or instead. Which... yeah, keeps happening. And yes, that does present the message "it's always gotta' be about men", at least in part. When it's not, someone comes in and tries to make it so, instead of, y'know, going to a different thread or whatnot.

Mind you, the one or two men's issue threads that I can remember popping up burned hard, but eh.

[Rolepgeek]

I know it hurts Rolepgeek. but it is a necessary evil.

It is an injustice that must be tempered for the greater good.

No, it really isn't. You can, instead of trying to make everything about you and your needs, be selfless for once and wait until women have equality before trying to bring up your own problems. My theory? That as women gain more equality, men will too, practically by default. Not as great a rate,perhaps, but they have less far to go.

Just be patient and help others instead of yourselves, for once.

[Neonivek]

You can't make a different thread Frumple.

Men's issues are mostly mocked.

Men's issues can only be dealt with in polite society though egalitarian means.

As well it tends to be begged both because every issue surrounding women needs to be compared and contrasted, but also because it always has a male counterpart.

Look at how "Explaining what this would feel like if it happened to a man" is done.

As well look at how "Masculine traits in women" is handled as well. It begs the question as to what masculine traits are.

As well Look at this conversation and how it goes beyond just me and how "Women deserve the attention" is going.

You can, instead of trying to make everything about you and your needs, be selfless for once and wait until women have equality before trying to bring up your own problems

You yourself have said that women are the experts on their own sexism.

By the same civet, men are experts in their own sexism.

As well no, the idea of "Women must be the only people working towards equality" is a very harmful attitude and goes into "women are weak defenseless creatures who need to be protected"

[Rolepgeek]

You can't make a different thread Frumple.

Men's issues are mostly mocked.

Men's issues can only be dealt with in polite society though egalitarian means.

As well it tends to be begged both because every issue surrounding women needs to be compared and contrasted, but also because it always has a male counterpart.

Look at how "Explaining what this would feel like if it happened to a man" is done.

You can, instead of trying to make everything about you and your needs, be selfless for once and wait until women have equality before trying to bring up your own problems

You yourself have said that women are the experts on their own sexism.

By the same civet, men are experts in their own sexism.

Hey look, a red herring.
Seriously, they had no helpful content whatsoever(the second part, after the quote).
Your point being?...i never said they weren't. I'm just saying the sexism that affects men negatively is less important than the sexism that affects women negatively. For the moment.

You added a part, and it makes no sense. I'm saying men should help women work towards getting equality, because they are, in real life, actually less equal than men. It's a true fact. It's not some figment of the imagination. What is a figment of the imagination, is the idea that men should have their issues dealt with first.

[Vector]

Well, in the medical community, you generally don't send a cold to the emergency room. That's what having a larger issue entitles you to. Appropriate concern and care.

The appropriate contribution to a discussion on sexism is to listen and to ask how you can help, and to defend women who are being trampled on without speaking over them. If your friend is crying because their parents died, it is not the right fucking time to bring up your goldfish. That's derailing the conversation and making it all about you.

I'm not going to relish that person who thought they were caring by making me work on their relatively minor issues. I'm not going to appreciate men who enter the movement and take it over, constantly reorienting the focus of the conversation to themselves. Your group expresses institutional power over our lives, and you've got to have our equality movement too or you just won't bother with it? How greedy can you get?

wait until women have equality before trying to bring up your own problems.

Or just make your own damn movements focusing on resolving men's issues. Do something constructive. Don't act like women have to solve their own problems that men are causing, and yours too.

[Rolepgeek]

>.>

Vector, I didn't mean they wouldn't help women get equality. I'm just saying it's rather a lesser issue.

[sal880612m]

Women are dealing with a larger issue than men are when it comes to sexism. We are ignored no matter how much we try to get people's attention. And then, if someone does listen, they want to talk about men instead. It's always gotta be about men. Even if it would make more sense for it to be about women.

You want to talk about men? Let's talk about the issues that trans men face, because that's a hell of a lot more relevant. Men of color, gay men, disabled men. But that's not what people mean when they say "But what about the men???" They mean people who are already sitting on top of the heap and still want to be catered to the moment the little guy gets anything for themselves.

I think male motivations for resisting change, not noticing sexism or bigoted attitudes on any of these fronts do have some relevance to a conversation on any of them. It seems counter intuitive to me to ignore these will still trying to effect changes in men but I will try and after this post leave men out of it.

Off the top of my head there are examples of where I think this has gotten lost in translation in this thread but I do think everything has gotten well and truly sidetracked.

eight replies before I get my post finished  .

[Vector]

I think male motivations for resisting change, not noticing sexism or bigoted attitudes on any of these fronts do have some relevance to a conversation on any of them. It seems counter intuitive to me to ignore these will still trying to effect changes in men but I will try and after this post leave men out of it.

No, you're completely right. Within the context of this discussion, that's appropriate. In a conversation with more women in it, it probably wouldn't be appropriate, because that's more of a conversation that male allies should be having with each other, in my opinion.

>.>

Vector, I didn't mean they wouldn't help women get equality. I'm just saying it's rather a lesser issue.

Sorry, I just meant that there was something constructive that men could do before asking the women's movement to help them, and that's to help themselves. That wasn't focused at you so much as a general expression of frustration.

[Neonivek]

Well, in the medical community, you generally don't send a cold to the emergency room. That's what having a larger issue entitles you to. Appropriate concern and care.

We do not have the Triage quite yet. We can save both patients right now.

As well these patients are not separate patients they are Siamese Twins.

I'm saying men should help women work towards getting equality, because they are, in real life, actually less equal than men. It's a true fact. It's not some figment of the imagination. What is a figment of the imagination, is the idea that men should have their issues dealt with first.

Red Herring, neither of those have been said.

I just meant that there was something constructive that men could do before asking the women's movement to help them

Honestly from everything said here. Men should by a whole ignore the women's movement and just develop their own language for egalitarianism and apply that to help women.

Feminism isn't made for men and it isn't made for men to talk about feminism. IF and only IF this thread is any indication. (which in real life... it isn't.)

You are asking for men to just sit and listen. To hold back their input. To take a passive role. If they have experiences that contradicts a woman's experience it is considered invalid, if they have an opinion that contradicts a woman's opinion it is invalid.

They need the ability to take an active role, to apply things to themselves, to input without criticism. they need valid input.

"But why must they apply things to themselves?" because it is easier to understand things as it relates to you. You cannot rely on selfishness to go away, you must instead shift selfishness to a usable form. It is the basic concept behind capitalism.

---

Ohh well I am out I tried.

[Rolepgeek]

You realize the definition of a feminist is someone who believes in and works towards equalnrights for women, right?

Also, you can't dismiss everything as a red herring because you don't want to actually reply to it. That sure seems like what you're doing.

[Frumple]

You can't make a different thread Frumple.

Men's issues are mostly mocked.

I'm pretty sure someone could manage it. The major problem with the ones I've seen on B12 were that they were either started by MRA types or rapidly infested by a few particularly shrill ones. Which, yeah, those get mocked, because they're imminently (and, to a degree, deservedly) mockable. Gender issues for the fellas is a topic of discussion that can be treated with dignity. It just tends to go poorly due to a few nitwits trying to play oppression olympics or something similarly ridiculous in regards to the subject.

[MaximumZero]

Wouldn't it be more effective and faster to focus on bringing about a completely level playing field for everyone, not just focus on specific groups? It frustrates me to no end that we, as a people, can't manage to just not be jerks to each other. The whole damn system needs to be burned down and rebuilt from the foundation up.

[Bauglir]

The appropriate contribution to a discussion on sexism is to listen and to ask how you can help, and to defend women who are being trampled on without speaking over them.

This, so much this. It's not complicated! Just be a decent friend here, people.

I mean, yeah, okay if the discussion in question is about something like government aid services assuming all rape victims are women and all rapists are men, switch "women" to "men", I'm not debating that. This isn't a competition, and there's nothing to win here.

You are asking for men to just sit and listen. To hold back their input. To take a passive role. If they have experiences that contradicts a woman's experience it is considered invalid, if they have an opinion that contradicts a woman's opinion it is invalid.

Because that is what decent people do when somebody is talking about their experiences!

"I had such an awful day at work, the customers were just such assholes and my manager wouldn't quit yelling at me long enough for me to get any work done and-"
"Have you considered that you're working in retail, so you're supposed to put up with that? Seriously, you're getting paid, what's the problem?"

Is the above exchange how people should behave?

[Rolepgeek]

Wouldn't it be more effective and faster to focus on bringing about a completely level playing field for everyone, not just focus on specific groups? It frustrates me to no end that we, as a people, can't manage to just not be jerks to each other. The whole damn system needs to be burned down and rebuilt from the foundation up.

You would think so, but first everyone has to be on a level playing field, period. Which it isn't right now. Focusing on men's issues takes the focus away from women's issues, which is where, in terms of gender oppression, it should be focused on.

[Neonivek]

You realize the definition of a feminist is someone who believes in and works towards equalnrights for women, right?

Few feminists will define a feminist as that. Most feminists today say that they are working towards equal rights for EVERYONE. That they are ultimately egalitarian.

Which is why I said feminism is egalitarian with a female focus.

Wouldn't it be more effective and faster to focus on bringing about a completely level playing field for everyone, not just focus on specific groups? It frustrates me to no end that we, as a people, can't manage to just not be jerks to each other. The whole damn system needs to be burned down and rebuilt from the foundation up.

equality isn't achieved when everyone is equal but by making sure everyone is unburdened.

It isn't when the scales are equally weighted but when the scales have no weights.

Equal treatment falls apart when you know that everyone has different needs.

You don't have to be a jerk to someone to slight them.

Because that is what decent people do when somebody is talking about their experiences!

"I had such an awful day at work, the customers were just such assholes and my manager wouldn't quit yelling at me long enough for me to get any work done and-"
"Have you considered that you're working in retail, so you're supposed to put up with that? Seriously, you're getting paid, what's the problem?"

Is the above exchange how people should behave?

That isn't exactly the same. If after the story the person said "well I worked in retail and I never yelled at anyone, odd" and the first person went "well I am right and all retail is this way" then it would match what I am referencing.

As well... I have had those exchanges before anyhow and they weren't being a jerk. They were informing me that I was being a big baby about work.