Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Glowcat]

So be specific, Neonivek. What about my post did you object to, which I haven't already addressed?

That you are attacking people on the basis of not being men, invalidating their opinions, and being generally sexist.

Who the heck have I "attacked" for not being men? I've attacked rather specific behaviors, not men. Is claiming that men have less credibility when it comes to observing sexism an attack now?

As I've said before the second "Mansplaining" enters the conversation, it is over.

I'm not going to type out my definition every time I need to refer to a system of behavior. Do you have a better word for systemic gender-based set of interactions that leads to men being condescending towards women?

Do you, or do you not, disagree with my claim that anecdotal empirical evidence would favor womens' accounts over mens'?

Yes... I do disagree... because I am unfortunately a person of logic and science and have studied everything from demographics, to law, to science itself and know that just because an account is first hand it doesn't mean it is correct.

My eyes rolled back into my head and I mention this to let you know, as a courtesy, that this is an incredibly pretentious sentence which undermines your rhetorical ability, not enhances it. You're not the only one who takes (as loosely categorized by society) intellectual interests, and values don't automatically translate to rational thought.

Neither is your contesting of anecdotal evidence valid, although there are plenty of studies on the matter if you want to take the time to look through them all, since existence of experience can be established by anecdotal evidence and we can fairly extrapolate the commonality of complaints indicates a problem, if not the full extent of it. There's plenty of evidence that supports everyday assertions and if there are enough women who feel it's an issue then it deserves to be acknowledged and not dismissed.

As well I am also a person well versed in conversation and debate, even if I stink at it, and know that in order to have a proper conversation you have to treat people as if all their opinions are equally valid.

...

Saying "Well you don't have the same experiences I do, and as a man you never could and that is why your opinions on this are inherently weak" is just a fallacy.

Incorrect. One must provide the other party's argument due consideration, not automatically grant it validity. That is the essence behind disagreement. It is not a fallacy to believe an astronaut has more experience of living in space than I do. I'm limited to hypothetical thought experiments or external perception of hypothetical astronaut.

you just hate "mansplaining" as a term since it's "sexist", which I'd strongly disagree with but have nothing to disagree about since you don't really have an argument backing the claim that it is sexist

Because it was so inherently sexist I didn't think I needed to explain. I honestly thought that bringing this up I'd have someone more qualified to explain this call up.

But lets break it down. What does mansplaining mean? Well lets see: "Mansplaining is a term used largely by feminists to describe the act of men "teaching women", often about things directly related to women's experience (like sexism, or abortion) without any recognition of (or interest in) the woman's actual knowledge of the topic" Ohh that is all fair and good... But what does it REALLY mean in this context. Ahh yes, it is when a man explains their point of view and asserts it over a woman's opinion. Better yet, that is even what it means within context of the definition.

In otherwords it is being used to mean "When a man has an opinion a woman disagrees with". It is a "Shut up" phrase through and through with no intellectual merits.

The qualifier in the definition alone disproves the universal application to men disagreeing with women. There are also plenty of examples where certain voices are less qualified in measures of experience (even when it comes to establishing credibility in scientific/law expertise) and thus I reject your line of reasoning.

I find your warrant, that "Mansplaining" is inherently sexist, to be invalid, as well as reject the claim/reason you put forth to justify it on the grounds that the gathering of empirical evidence would be unsalvageably compromised if people accepted its blanket granting of credibility.

EDIT: Wait, you're leaving? I just typed.. that... bleugh. Okay :I

[ed boy]

So be specific, Neonivek. What about my post did you object to, which I haven't already addressed?

That you are attacking people on the basis of not being men, invalidating their opinions, and being generally sexist.

Who the heck have I "attacked" for not being men? I've attacked rather specific behaviors, not men. Is claiming that men have less credibility when it comes to observing sexism an attack now?

I'm going to say that yes, it is a form of attack. It's claiming that sexism directed against men is lesser than other forms of sexism, with the implicit allegation that experiences of men who have been targets of sexism are less significant than those of women.

[Glowcat]

Given that the context is sexism experienced by women, that seems like it's rather reaching, no?

[Mindmaker]

@Glowcat
In case any of that *action* rant was aimed at me:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

It's just a matter of basic reading comprehension at this point. I explained what I meant often enough.

[ed boy]

Given that the context is sexism experienced by women, that seems like it's rather reaching, no?

Is it? (the context, that is?) The discussion took a sharp divergence from Anita's videos to general inter-gender attitudes on sexism and the term "mansplaining".

[Rolepgeek]

So be specific, Neonivek. What about my post did you object to, which I haven't already addressed?

That you are attacking people on the basis of not being men, invalidating their opinions, and being generally sexist.

Who the heck have I "attacked" for not being men? I've attacked rather specific behaviors, not men. Is claiming that men have less credibility when it comes to observing sexism an attack now?

I'm going to say that yes, it is a form of attack. It's claiming that sexism directed against men is lesser than other forms of sexism, with the implicit allegation that experiences of men who have been targets of sexism are less significant than those of women.

They are.

Seriously. Men don't typically have to worry about being raped because they go out at night whilst looking good. They don't have to worry about getting shouted down when they try to play a game online.

[ed boy]

Seriously. Men don't typically have to worry about being raped because they go out at night whilst looking good. They don't have to worry about getting shouted down when they try to play a game online.

Men have equivalent things to worry about. A man might not worry about being raped as much as a woman, but men do have to worry about being falsely accused of rape - something which can lose you your friends, your job or get you kicked out of school, without you even knowing that such allegations are being made. A man might not worry about getting shouted down when trying to play games as much, but a man has to worry about being shouted down by people who believe that any concern for the wellbeing of an incapacitated friend or contact with non-related children is an attempt as sexual predation.

If you believe that sexism directed against men is lesser than sexism directed against women, then I disagree with you strongly. It's certainly different, and there are areas in which women are victims more, but there are also areas in which men are victims more.

[Graknorke]

Seriously. Men don't typically have to worry about being raped because they go out at night whilst looking good. They don't have to worry about getting shouted down when they try to play a game online.

Apart from the fact that misses the point (it's not men in general ed was talking about, it was specifically when men were victims of sexism not how frequent this is), I have a counterpoint to what you said anyway.
Since men are the patriarchal oppressors of women, they should have experience of performing these acts. So should be equally credible when talking about it. In fact, probably more than the victims are, since they have an understanding of the motivations behind it. The same as perpetrators of crimes are high priorities in terms of being interrogated, above bystander witnesses.

[Cheeetar]

I think equating being raped with being accused of raping somebody is a bit more inflammatory than you mean to be being, Ed.

[ed boy]

I think equating being raped with being accused of raping somebody is a bit more inflammatory than you mean to be being, Ed.

It's not my intent to be inflammatory, but after a former friend of mine made a false rape accusation against an acquaintance of mine, I've seen that they can ruin people's lives. Even after the woman admitted that it wasn't rape, the reputation of being a rapist propagated, he was ostracized by large portions of the community, and almost got kicked out of university. This was a case were everybody involved was trying to avoid a public scandal, and the little news of it that leaked out into the community did major harm. If someone involved had not wished to avoid publicity, then it would have gone much worse for him.

[Rolepgeek]

Seriously. Men don't typically have to worry about being raped because they go out at night whilst looking good. They don't have to worry about getting shouted down when they try to play a game online.

Men have equivalent things to worry about. A man might not worry about being raped as much as a woman, but men do have to worry about being falsely accused of rape - something which can lose you your friends, your job or get you kicked out of school, without you even knowing that such allegations are being made. A man might not worry about getting shouted down when trying to play games as much, but a man has to worry about being shouted down by people who believe that any concern for the wellbeing of an incapacitated friend or contact with non-related children is an attempt as sexual predation.

If you believe that sexism directed against men is lesser than sexism directed against women, then I disagree with you strongly. It's certainly different, and there are areas in which women are victims more, but there are also areas in which men are victims more.

Yes, because the likelihood of being accused of rape and subsequently actually going to jail for it, when maybe 3% of actual rapists spend any time whatsoever in jail, is equally as likely as rape is for women. The areas in which men are 'victims' are results of sexism against women; if rape wasn't so goddamned common, none of that would be an issue, now would it? I mean, jeezus fucking christ, do you actually buy this bullshit? Are you part of the Men's Rights Association, too? God. I mean, honestly, how the fuck is being accused of rape worse, or as likely to happen, as actually being raped? And yes, I know how sexism can bullshit men, typically in regards to rape, but not in being accused of it, in the whole 'men can't be raped because they love sex hurr'. But the incidence of rape for men is smaller than the incidence of rape for women, leaving aside the whole victim-blaming issue.

@Graknorke: I see. So you're an expert on sexism, because you're sexist. That makes sense. >.>

EDIT: To clarify, being accused of rape can't get you pregnant. Being accused of rape is far less likely to traumatize you and give you mental scars. Being accused of rape isn't a violation of your humanity. Yeah, it sucks, and I know because it's happened to me. Maybe I'm lucky because everyone knew it was bullshit. Still scary; still not the same as actual rape.

[Graknorke]

@Graknorke: I see. So you're an expert on sexism, because you're sexist. That makes sense. >.>

Do you disagree with the reasoning or not?
Your pretty obvious anger, contempt, and sarcasm don't do anything to help me understand what you're saying.

[Rolepgeek]

@Graknorke: I see. So you're an expert on sexism, because you're sexist. That makes sense. >.>

Do you disagree with the reasoning or not?
Your pretty obvious anger, contempt, and sarcasm don't do anything to help me understand what you're saying.

I think it's factually correct. I think claiming that you should be trusted in a topic about sexism because you personally are sexist is bullshit.

[Neonivek]

Its not BS, the MRA are just the ultimate Strawman that obscure the issue by being insane.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_accusation_of_rape

The MRA are like PETA... They are raving lunatics treated as the face of the issue.

[Graknorke]

@Graknorke: I see. So you're an expert on sexism, because you're sexist. That makes sense. >.>

Do you disagree with the reasoning or not?
Your pretty obvious anger, contempt, and sarcasm don't do anything to help me understand what you're saying.

I think it's factually correct. I think claiming that you should be trusted in a topic about sexism because you personally are sexist is bullshit.

When did I say it was because I personally was sexist? It's about men as a whole. As you have insisted multiple times, non-male sexism is negligible, and men are mostly sexist. So it stands to reason that men would generally have experience with being sexist.