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[Mindmaker]

I think his point was, unless I misuderstood, that "Your bubble isn't any more true than my bubble and neither represents the world".
Which is something I agree with.

Which of course, you would be wrong to do.

Even accepting that everyone is living in their own little bubble, RPgeek is still correct. He is saying this thing is a issue. The other person is saying it's not a issue. For RPgeek to be right it needs to be a issue anywhere, which it clearly is in the bubble he lives in. For the other person to be correct it would have to not be a issue anywhere.

A problem doesn't need to be world wide to be a problem. On the other hand non existent problem must not exist everywhere for it to not exist.

Except I would not.
I never denied the problem exist, just that any of your anecdotal evidence qualifies to represent the situation on the whole fucking world.

[Rolepgeek]

If all we're disagreeing about is the severity of the problem, can we shut up and start working on how to fix it? Otherwise we're just wasting our time.

[palsch]

Except I would not.
I never denied the problem exist, just that any of your anecdotal evidence qualifies to represent the situation on the whole fucking world.

Except that there was an actual dismissal/denial of the personal experience of a woman in relation to video games and gaming culture.

In a topic where a substantial part of the conversation is about the experiences of women in relation to video games and gaming culture.

See the potential problem there?

[Mindmaker]

I think his point was, unless I misuderstood, that "Your bubble isn't any more true than my bubble and neither represents the world".
Which is something I agree with.

See, Neonivek, Mindmaker, do you know why I find it hard to believe you when you say this? Several reasons. First off, you aren't women.

Gee, I wasn't aware that being a woman made you an expert on everything, everywhere as long as it is tangentially related to women, even if it's thousands of kilometres away.
The locals? Well those don't actually know shit, after all they are the wrong gender.

[Rolepgeek]

So, what you're saying seems to be: "Women obviously don't know anything more than men do about sexism, despite being subjected to it on a daily basis in more harmful ways than men."

Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Mindmaker]

@Sharkeesian:
I wouldn't be bothered by her, if she didn't claim that she was doing it nurture "open dialogue" and then proceeding with either blocking all comments, or needing to have them approved by a moderator, which never happens if you have any sort of dissenting opionion (I know, I actually tried).
They was she presented the whole "debate" with one side being the poor feminists (which looked more like feminist circlejerk to me) and on the other side only evil trolls/haters/neckbeards was disgusting. She ignored all of the "grey area" of reasonable people looking for discussion and didn't adress their concerns or criticism even once.

Mindmaker, you have to realise any kind of "free for all" commenting system would only overflow with hate and bile. That's not where good discussions are held.

I understand, but how come her own site, where comments have to be approved by moderators before they are made public, is only overflowing with back-patting and nothing else? Surely there is more than just black and white to this debate.

[Redzephyr01]

Didn't Anita Sarkeesian at one point say "Mirror's Edge is too hard for women"? I don't think I'd want anyone who thinks stuff like that to represent feminism.

[Mindmaker]

Except I would not.
I never denied the problem exist, just that any of your anecdotal evidence qualifies to represent the situation on the whole fucking world.

Except that there was an actual dismissal/denial of the personal experience of a woman in relation to video games and gaming culture.

In a topic where a substantial part of the conversation is about the experiences of women in relation to video games and gaming culture.

See the potential problem there?

I didn't dismiss the anecdotal evidence itself, just the claim on representativity.

So, what you're saying seems to be: "Women obviously don't know anything more than men do about sexism, despite being subjected to it on a daily basis in more harmful ways than men."

Correct me if I'm wrong.

Gladly.
You may know more about sexism in your given area. You may know more about hypothetical scenarios that can happen to other women elsewhere.
But you know little about the lived realities of other women elsewhere.

Didn't Anita Sarkeesian at one point say "Mirror's Edge is too hard for women"? I don't think I'd want anyone who thinks stuff like that to represent feminism.

She said the controls put off a lot of women and that they could make it more like Assassins Creed acrobatic controls.

[Neonivek]

you label her as an 'outsider' to gaming culture

Well A) I didn't... and B) It wasn't a reference to gaming culture but rather to that person's viewpoint.

Now even if you didn't mean that in the way she took it (eg, literally)

I doubt she did, I explained it and if Vector honestly felt like I was just attacking her further she would have said so.

Here's the problem though. When Vector outlined some personal experience of sexism she had UltraValican dismiss her experience as invalid

Not a problem, call him out... keep it civil. Disagree, debate.

Didn't Anita Sarkeesian at one point say "Mirror's Edge is too hard for women"? I don't think I'd want anyone who thinks stuff like that to represent feminism.

I highly doubt she said that... I'd want to see it.

Since that would be a dumb thing for anyone to say.

"Women obviously don't know anything more than men do about sexism, despite being subjected to it on a daily basis in more harmful ways than men."

I'd actually would agree with that statement. Perhaps not "as a whole" due to how society works... But a woman doesn't get a sexism level up just because it occurs to her more often. A person who receives a lot of injuries isn't anymore equipped to treat them then someone who never experienced one.

There is a reason the feminist movement started off as a way to get rich white, a VERY specific kind of white, women the vote... or at least that part of it. The sexism they experienced didn't make them any more apt to handle the issue at the time, it actually took a lot of time, effort, and debate to expand it to what we have today. This knowledge wasn't gifted to female or male.

[Rolepgeek]

And you do, Mindmaker? You know about the lived realities of women outside your area? My apologies, then, good sir, I had no idea.

My point is, you can't dismiss it out of hand because you don't notice it. The fact that you don't see it doesn't mean it's not there. It just means you need to look harder. Like the moon during the day.

[Mindmaker]

"Women obviously don't know anything more than men do about sexism, despite being subjected to it on a daily basis in more harmful ways than men."

I'd actually would agree with that statement. Perhaps not "as a whole" due to how society works... But a woman doesn't get a sexism level up just because it occurs to her more often. A person who receives a lot of injuries isn't anymore equipped to treat them then someone who never experienced one.

There is a reason the feminist movement started off as a way to get rich white, a VERY specific kind of white, women the vote... or at least that part of it.

"Intersectionality" would be the problem you describe (I think), if anyone is interested.

[Redzephyr01]

Also, I know for a fact that Anita thinks that women doing anything "masculine" is sexist. Seriously, read it, it sounds more like she just wants to complain about stuff than she does actually want to change anything.

[Rolepgeek]

As a note real quick, I don't particularly agree with Anita except on a few of the points she makes (or should be making) in some of her videos. I'm pro-equality, not pro-bullshit. >.>

[EnigmaticHat]

Also, I know for a fact that Anita thinks that women doing anything "masculine" is sexist. Seriously, read it, it sounds more like she just wants to complain about stuff than she does actually want to change anything.

You cannot seriously be arguing this point.  What she is saying is a thing that is widely accepted by feminism and media criticism, its so basic that its barely even worth discussing.  Acting like its some sort of extremist argument is ludicrous.

"The warrior woman character is touted as empowering, but what it actually represents is taking a male character and giving them breasts and long hair."

There's your daily lesson on "common feminist arguments 101".  I'm not saying that everyone agrees with this argument, but most people who have given thought to media and gender issues have either heard this one in some form, or fucking thought of it on their own.

[palsch]

Didn't Anita Sarkeesian at one point say "Mirror's Edge is too hard for women"? I don't think I'd want anyone who thinks stuff like that to represent feminism.

An invented quote as far as I can tell. The closest I can find to a primary source is a screenshot of 4Chan...

Also, I know for a fact that Anita thinks that women doing anything "masculine" is sexist. Seriously, read it, it sounds more like she just wants to complain about stuff than she does actually want to change anything.

Have you read it? Seriously? One central section;

While tracing the representations of each of these strong women I found that they do in fact embody
many masculine traits, making them more pleasing to networks and advertisers.
In patriarchal society, masculine traits are socially valued over female traits and so it follows that in order for a woman on television to appear atrong and capable, she must embody these masculine traits. Many of these television writers are subscribing to the four archetypes so firmly that they are merely replicating patriarchy as opposed to transcending the masculine archetypes and re-identifying and imagining what a female heroic archetype might look like.

That is to say, 'strong' female characters on TV are seen as strong because they display masculine traits. Masculine traits are seen as inherently positive while feminist traits are seen as inherently negative, at least as far as TV goes (she even has charts on page 46/7). This means that strong female characters can only rarely display feminine traits while still being viewed as strong or positive characters. And that's what she is criticising as sexist. Those views.

And Neon, going to need to take a while to try to frame a response here. Just didn't want to lose the rest of the thread of the conversation.