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[Rolepgeek]

So, I'mma reply to a couple things here.

First off, UltraValican.

THESE ARE COMMONLY EXPRESSED OPINIONS THE OTHER WAY AROUND. I HEAR THEM CONSTANTLY. PEOPLE, STOP TELLING ME THIS SHIT DOESN'T EXIST AND IT ISN'T A FUCKING PROBLEM. I DON'T CARE IF YOU LIVE IN A VACUUM IN WHICH NO MISOGYNY IS EVER EXPRESSED, BECAUSE THAT IS A BUBBLE, NOT THE WORLD.

THESE ARE NOT COMMONLY EXPRESSED OPINIONS THE OTHER WAY AROUND. I HAVE NEVER HEARD THESE SAID IN ANY SERIOUS CAPACITY. PEOPLE, STOP TELLING ME THIS SHIT EXITS AND IS A FUCKING PROBLEM. I DON"T CARE IF YOU LIVE IN A BUBBLE WHERE LUDICROUS STRAWMEN EXIST, BECAUSE THAT IS A BUBBLE, NOT THE WORLD.

I'm going to start by saying: you're wrong. They are. Just because you don't see them, doesn't mean they don't exist. Do you not believe in racism, either? Because there's plenty of shit to prove that wrong. But to give an example of why you're wrong; your logic also allows the following statement: "I have never gotten malaria, therefore malaria only exists in tiny isolated bubbles, and isn't actually a serious disease capable of threatening many people." If you replace "malaria" with "smallpox" then this is partially true. It's a rectangle-square situation, and you yelling back makes you seem like an asshole(and from the way you've been posting, I've been getting the impression that that's correct), and a misogynist. Do you honestly think misogyny isn't a problem because you, as a man, have never been subjected to it? Really?

Most men don't listen to us.

The men that do have an obligation to speak to other men. That's what being a good ally is. Leverage your power to demand better conditions for others.

This is the sort of dialog that sort of makes me scratch my head and wonder why people bother IF that is what they honestly believe.

Cause trust me NO ONE CARES by association. You can fill a guy up with all the equality rights knowledge you want, but he isn't anymore convincing.

I see, I see...so what you're saying, is because it's difficult to improve their situation, they shouldn't even bother. Just like the slaves! Well, golly gee, Neonivek, that sure makes me feel a lot better knowing it's pointless to even try! Now I can go about my life completely guilt-free about 51% of the population being oppressed!

And for my next trick, I'll point out that you saying 'trust me' is a logical fallacy going off either a. Anecdotal evidence, useless in this situation, or b. ass-pull evidence, equally useless, but in all situations. 'Cause trust me, I know people who I've been able to show how things are sexist, and gotten them to change their behavior, at least slightly. Hell, I've been that person a stupendous amount of times. Yes, there will always be assholes who refuse to see logic. Just because they exist doesn't mean we should give up altogether.

That made just about zero sense. You don't seem to be getting what they're saying. You're saying 'well, dogs can be characters too'. No. Not really. Yes, in Dragon Age: Origins one of the party members is a dog. How much depth is there to the dog? What are it's goals, it's dreams, it's ambitions? Cloud and Crono both have those. So does Samus, to a degree(Mario could certainly be replaced by a dog, for most of the games). The dog? The dog just has 'protect the master, get food'. If you aren't able to tell the difference between a narrative character, and a narrative dog, well...that's your own problem, but don't allow sexism to perpetuate just because of that

Crono and Cloud never speak for themselves in their respective game. The same goes with Samus in the vast majority of her games, the only exception being the game where she might as well have not even been there.

They could easily be replaced with a dog and lose nothing. Slap a tape recorder onto their body and there you go.

Also a dog has a full psychology... As do most mammals. I know most people like to make them VERY bestial to justify their treatment, but no.

Also just because I disagree with "you could replace the character with a dog" as a basis for sexism doesn't mean I am suddenly for sexism.

It would be like saying if I don't agree with Patriot Law that I am Anti-America and hate the USA. I am allowed to have disagreements, even fundamental ones, without going off the deep end.

Better yet you mentioned Dragon Age... How many characters act EXACTLY like the dog? Most of them? How many of them could be entirely replaced by your dog with a tape recorder giving stock phrases? Most of them (A FEW remain relevant)

Okay, what the fuck does this have to do with anything? You're willfully misinterpreting the point, and it's getting annoying. Tape recorders have nothing to do with anything. It's not about being able to speak. It's about goals, ambitions, the things that make someone human. Many female 'characters' in games don't have that. Just like dogs don't have that. That's what we're trying to get at, not some bullshit about speaking.

Additionally, I wasn't claiming you were sexist; I was stating that by refusing to acknowledge the sexism inherent in this and not wanting to do anything about it, you're allowing sexism to perpetuate in our culture. You're like the kid on the playground who sees someone else getting punched in the face by a bully, and because he figures the teacher won't do anything about it, goes back to playing on the swings without even trying to help.

The point isn't 'oh there are no female characters'. The point is; how many female characters are there, versus how many male characters? What is their role in the game? Are they established physical characters, or are they eye-candy? And yes, they can be eye-candy and established corporeal narrative characters at the same time, but they don't need to be, all the time, which is the current trend.

Yes but my statement was mostly that the trend you are seeing isn't as overwhelming as it appears as soon as you step out the shooters.

But it is still an overwhelming trend. That's the problem.

That's rather difficult, due to the large numbers of them. It's making the analogy of penis to breasts, in which case I can say Laura Croft, right off the bat. Whether it's out and flailing or not isn't the issue. The issue is that, how do you like being forced to, during every cutscene, where the artwork and character design is meant to draw attention to it, have your eyes drawn to a bulging erection in the man's skintight pants?

You are acting as if I like Breast Camera and it isn't the one thing that makes me groan constantly at Ghost in a Shell... or that the one thing I actively disliked about Soul Calibur 4, in spite of liking that game, is how EVERYONE's breast sizes grew a few sizes.

But what I am saying is mostly that. There is no direct parallel. People constantly use the penis as an example, but the penis' direct parallel isn't a woman's breasts and by HECK no female videogame character has ever had... THAT on full display... well unless it was a porn.

But Porn and "women's rights" have such a complicated relationship that you would go insane (MOSTLY because unlike Videogame depiction... There are MANY feminist views on porn, many of which contradict eachother, all active and shared between multiple everyday people at a time.) but my view on the whole ordeal is that it is completely and utterly unsolvable and shouldn't be touched by mortal hands.

I'm not saying it's a perfect analogy. But it's the closest one, because those are the sexual parts of the body most commonly 'on display' for either gender(that and the ass, but I'm not gonna get into that right now). I'm not saying you are one of the 13 year old kids or 40 year old men who smile at those cutscenes. I'm just saying, imagine if you were a straight woman in the situation of wanting to play a nice, violent video game, and then hey look breasts-in-your-face. Now who's in a more oppressed situation? Them, or you? Yeah, I thought so.
For that matter, I tried to avoid mentioning porn, because it has zero relevance to this discussion. And another note, why is it so hard for you to type vagina, when you can type penis so easily? I didn't think it was difficult.

Look I know I am saying a lot of things... but my arguments are mainly focused on how specific arguments are poor or need to be expanded to have any worth.

I am saying that "Replaced by a dog" isn't anywhere near as negative of a connotation as it tries to make it out to be simply because most characters could be replaced by a dog (as well as most main protagonists) and a dog still is a more rounded character then it could seem on the surface. Not that women aren't often put into valueless roles in videogames and never get important roles (though I think it happens WAY more then what some of you are implying.)

So expand on them for us. Don't just point out holes; fill them. Otherwise you're not contributing anything worthwhile to the discussion beyond dead weight.

[Neonivek]

Backstory doesn't really factor right into the game, since really you can give a dog any backstory you want (because the dog doesn't actually had to perform its backstory). If the Damsel from Spelunky, for example, had an extensive backstory it is doubtful the "she could be replaced by a dog" would be lightened even a shred.

As well Rolan no one "treats" "female characters who could be replaced by an dog" as a dog. Same way most characters don't ACTUALLY treat female characters as objects or sex objects, since a object lacks complete agency and the character usually needs to at least ask the female character. Yet no one ever says that eliminates objectification, so it wouldn't eliminate that either.

Think of the dog as an intelligent dog actor playing the part of the characters with a tape recorder. Could the dog play that part?

Crono only generally needs to say "yes or no" or chose between two binary decisions. Crono emotes and never speaks. In fact at one point of the game you need to herd a cat and your trial has nothing to do with Crono's actual character but some random things he did around town (something a dog could do).

Tank top was Metroid 2, which didn't make plot sense (it was a "fast played" ending) except I guess as a reference to Alien

It was her putting on casual clothing as a sort of a shedding of the terror of that mission. Which is why I say it makes narrative sense.

why is it so hard for you to type vagina, when you can type penis so easily? I didn't think it was difficult

Cause I don't wanna say either of them... But one needs to be said.

But it is still an overwhelming trend. That's the problem

And I am saying it isn't that overwhelming. A connotative difference.

I'm not saying it's a perfect analogy. But it's the closest one

Then don't use it. Guys aren't brainless. Show them clips of Ghost in a Shell or several of the breast shots you can often get in videogames.

I see...so what you're saying, is because it's difficult to improve their situation, they shouldn't even bother

No I am saying that if you honestly believe that the vast majority of guys do not listen and that only other guys can possibly carry a feminist message to another guy... Then yeah give up. Since if that was true it is hopeless.

Which is where I honestly have a hard time understanding that belief.

I mean yeah I am clearly crazy and still believe most people are reasonable intelligent people and at most they are ignorant or deluded and that I have some shred of faith in humanity... Yeah I am misanthropic too paradoxically an believe people are dumb and change will never happen. Yet still retain both are true.

[Ogdibus]

This is a relevant video.
I'm not sure if it's been linked to earlier, and there's no way I can be bothered reading through all 174 pages or this thread to find it.

Thunderf00t is a notorious antifeminist hate monger.  If you know his story, and/or really know anything about feminism, you also know that he's full of crap when it comes to this.

[Rolepgeek]

No I am saying that if you honestly believe that the vast majority of guys do not listen and that only other guys can possibly carry a feminist message to another guy... Then yeah give up. Since if that was true it is hopeless.

Which is where I honestly have a hard time understanding that belief.

What infuriates me is that you don't have an investment in this, so it's easy for you to say 'give up, it's hopeless'. And it makes you an asshole when you do. Seriously, it does. It feels like you're saying 'well, from my perspective you can't change anything, so you shouldn't try, you should just go back to your oppressed, hopeless, dreary little lives'.

Oh, and InsanityIncarnate, I can point out myriad ways that video is BS, if you'd like~

Anyway. Neonivek. You're purposefully missing the point. Stop it. There are fundamental things that differentiate a narrative character from a dog, especially when the story isn't about a dog.
If you don't understand that, you're either stupid, or you're doing it on purpose. You're leaving aside the whole 'goals, ambitions, hopes, fears'. Yes, yippee, a well-trained dog could do shit a main character could in some situations. That's not what we're trying to disprove. Jeezus christ, man. Can you stop being so obstinate for a second and think about what we're saying? Who gives a shit about intelligent dog actors? It's not about body shape or ability to speak. It's barely even about the ability to make decisions. It's about the role they play. How much of a difference would it make to the plot if Cronos was a dog? A shitton. A SHITTON.

[Rolan7]

Think of the dog as an intelligent dog actor playing the part of the characters with a tape recorder. Could the dog play that part?

Crono only generally needs to say "yes or no" or chose between two binary decisions. Crono emotes and never speaks. In fact at one point of the game you need to herd a cat and your trial has nothing to do with Crono's actual character but some random things he did around town (something a dog could do).

No, an intelligent dog actor would not find and bet on a race, find and engage in a drinking competition, or figure out the weird minigame in that tent.  It might beat up that stupid singing robot for a few hours though.

I still don't know why we're even talking about this, or even *what* we're talking about ):  I'm only replying because it's so easy to shoot down the premise that Cloud and Crono and Samus could be replaced with dogs.  But that doesn't have anything to do with anything so I'm going to let smarter people than me discuss things.

[TamerVirus]

This is a relevant video.
I'm not sure if it's been linked to earlier, and there's no way I can be bothered reading through all 174 pages or this thread to find it.

Thunderf00t is a notorious antifeminist hate monger.  If you know his story, and/or really know anything about feminism, you also know that he's full of crap when it comes to this.

I'm sorry, but this is a textbook ad hominem right here

[Neonivek]

It feels like you're saying 'well, from my perspective you can't change anything, so you shouldn't try, you should just go back to your oppressed, hopeless, dreary little lives'.

No I am saying from your perspective it sounds like you can't change anything and shouldn't try.

There are fundamental things that differentiate a narrative character from a dog, especially when the story isn't about a dog.

Then how about this. Give me good examples of characters who could be replaced by a dog.

Preferably ones who couldn't also be replaced by a cardboard cut out.

This is a relevant video.
I'm not sure if it's been linked to earlier, and there's no way I can be bothered reading through all 174 pages or this thread to find it.

Thunderf00t is a notorious antifeminist hate monger.  If you know his story, and/or really know anything about feminism, you also know that he's full of crap when it comes to this.

I'm sorry, but this is a textbook ad hominem right here

Yeah... it is.

How much of a difference would it make to the plot if Cronos was a dog? A shitton. A SHITTON

Not really... I mean Crono is already BARELY an entity who is basically thrown about from plot point to plot point never really changing things himself but rather reversing things already set in motion. He never creates his own opportunities or has any of his own dreams or aspirations for himself. He only hears of other's personalities, dreams, and wishes. His entire role is simply to be the perspective at which you see everyone else's story unfold and to be the essential blank slate for the player to project into.

Him being a dog who which everyone showers with love and attention and talk to... could honestly fulfill the VAST majority of Crono's narrative role. The only one it doesn't are the characters who are Crono's Rivals.

[Rolepgeek]

This is a relevant video.
I'm not sure if it's been linked to earlier, and there's no way I can be bothered reading through all 174 pages or this thread to find it.

Thunderf00t is a notorious antifeminist hate monger.  If you know his story, and/or really know anything about feminism, you also know that he's full of crap when it comes to this.

I'm sorry, but this is a textbook ad hominem right here

True, but he is, in fact, full of crap, based on the fact that he's full of crap. I can divulge my reasons, if you'd like.

It feels like you're saying 'well, from my perspective you can't change anything, so you shouldn't try, you should just go back to your oppressed, hopeless, dreary little lives'.

No I am saying from your perspective it sounds like you can't change anything and shouldn't try.

How is that different or better?

There are fundamental things that differentiate a narrative character from a dog, especially when the story isn't about a dog.

Then how about this. Give me good examples of characters who could be replaced by a dog.

Preferably ones who couldn't also be replaced by a cardboard cut out.

I'll leave that to people who know what the fuck they're talking about in such situations. I don't have a wide enough knowledge of games to do so, and I admit it.

[Neonivek]

How is that different or better?

It kind of makes all the difference and depending on which one you take (Whether from my perspective you shouldn't try, or me telling you that from your perspective you shouldn't try) completely and utterly changes the meaning of my words as well as the intent.

[TamerVirus]

This is a relevant video.
I'm not sure if it's been linked to earlier, and there's no way I can be bothered reading through all 174 pages or this thread to find it.

Thunderf00t is a notorious antifeminist hate monger.  If you know his story, and/or really know anything about feminism, you also know that he's full of crap when it comes to this.

I'm sorry, but this is a textbook ad hominem right here

True, but he is, in fact, full of crap, based on the fact that he's full of crap. I can divulge my reasons, if you'd like.

But this line of thinking does nothing to disprove his argument. Hell, that type of thinking does nothing to disprove anyone's argument

[Rolepgeek]

How is that different or better?

It kind of makes all the difference and depending on which one you take (Whether from my perspective you shouldn't try, or me telling you that from your perspective you shouldn't try) completely and utterly changes the meaning of my words as well as the intent.

The end result is the same. You're telling women not to try to improve their situation, because you can't see that it might work.
That's you assuming you know better than them, first off.
It's rude, second off.

TamerVirus, do you want my reasons, or not?

[Neonivek]

The end result is the same

No... only if you completely miss the point.

Also yes I am holding out on clarifying because I want to believe I haven't obscured my point so much that no one can understand it.

[TamerVirus]

eh, why not. Go ahead.

[Ogdibus]

But this line of thinking does nothing to disprove his argument. Hell, that type of thinking does nothing to disprove anyone's argument

Just look him up, I'm calling him exactly what he is.  He's not worth a derail to discuss.  It would be better to do it in the general "Gender thread".

Edit:  I'd like to add, that I chose to attack him rather than his video, because regardless of whether he makes any valid arguments in the video or not, he is not a credible source for critiques on feminism.  Any valid points that he might have can be made without any reference to him.

[Neonivek]

Anyhow my point wasn't "just give up" it was simply "I cannot be that bad, because if it was then there is no point".

and with that my "not my problem" time is back on. Which given how things went in here, I should be scolded for leaving "not my problem".